Perspective

[FrigidDev]

You still haven't answered my question though. So there is a general revelation that God exists. That's great, but many people know he exists, but aren't saved. So how can you be saved with the only knowledge you have is that God exists?

And even if they did reject the fact that God exists....all they are rejecting is just a feeling that they were created. Every culture has an explanation for creation, so without knowledge of Jesus Christ, they can't make a decision about following him!

 

[JonC]

In Romans 10:18 Paul is quoting from Psalm 19:4. to show that David also understood that God's General Revelation of Himself extended to all of mankind.

Take the word "words" in context and we see it is not the articulated Special Revelation of the Gospel but rather the General Revelation of God's existence, power, and majesty that is in view here so that they were without excuse.

I was not applying that passage in terms of salvation but condemination. Paul applies it, I believe, to show a just condeminatiom for all....and even as rejecting Christ. Not being saved, but justly condemned. Men are not saved merly by reading or hearing the gospel message. Many have heard and rejected the message.

 

[FrigidDev]

All you to need to be condemned is to be born. We are born on our way to hell...that's clear in the Bible.

 

[JonC]

All you to need to be condemned is to be born. We are born on our way to hell...that's clear in the Bible.

No, we are not condemned because we are born.

 

[FrigidDev]

No, we are not condemned because we are born.

We are born with sin nature.

The wages of sin is death.


We are condemned at conception, I should say.

 

[JonC]

We are born with sin nature.

The wages of sin is death.


We are condemned at conception, I should say.

For all have sinned....

I think we are straying from your question (which was, btw, a very good question).

 

[FrigidDev]

For all have sinned....

I think we are straying from your question (which was, btw, a very good question).

"there is none righteous"

But I guess I'll get back to point.

If I don't know who Jesus is, can I make the decision to be saved?

 

[JonC]

"there is none righteous"

But I guess I'll get back to point.

If I don't know who Jesus is, can I make the decision to be saved?

Even knowing who Jesus is, we don't make the decision to be saved.

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[FrigidDev]

Even knowing who Jesus is, we don't make the decision to be saved.

Sent from my TARDIS

Ohhhhhhh.

I see where you're coming from now.

I realllly don't want to get into a Calvinistic vs Armenian debate...there's already tons of those on this site.

That's the pivotal point of this debate. Too bad.

 

[JonC]

Ohhhhhhh.

I see where you're coming from now.

I realllly don't want to get into a Calvinistic vs Armenian debate...there's already tons of those on this site.

That's the pivotal point of this debate. Too bad.

Many turn it into Cal/Arm. Internet Theologian is a Calvinist and he indicated a bit back that he agrees with you. But there is more to Christianity than Calvinism and Arminianism. And you missed my point.

My point is that all men have rejected God. I cannot sin without that sin being a rejection of God. We are all justly condemned.

Now my comment if salvation is that God saves men. He put Philip where Philip was to be. We are not given a DIY book and left alone. Orthodox Christian theology presents salvation as a work wrought by God. That was my point.


Sent from my TARDIS

 

[TCassidy]

No, we are not condemned because we are born.

We are condemned when we are born.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[JonC]

We are condemned when we are born.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I agree. But we are not condemned because we are born.

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[FrigidDev]

I agree. But we are not condemned because we are born.

Sent from my TARDIS

To say we are condemned because we are born is not too far off. Since we've consciously made no decision, we are condemned for something we had no part in. We are born already on our way to hell, before any choice to accept or reject the gospel is made.

 

[InTheLight]

I agree. But we are not condemned because we are born.

Sent from my TARDIS

What's the difference?

 

[JonC]

What's the difference?

Birth is not given in Scripture as a reason for condemnation.

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[JonC]

To say we are condemned because we are born is not too far off. Since we've consciously made no decision, we are condemned for something we had no part in. We are born already on our way to hell, before any choice to accept or reject the gospel is made.

We can say quite a frw things that are not "too far off" but that lead to two different paths. We are not "on the way to Hell" because we are born, but I get what you are saying.

I do not believe that because of Adams sin alone we are condemned. I believe that we are condemned because we are sinners. It is not a matter of being flawed, per se, but a matter of the will and desire.

 

[InTheLight]

Birth is not given in Scripture as a reason for condemnation.

Sent from my TARDIS

Two statements were made:

1. We are condemned when we are born.
2. We are condemned because we are born.

You agreed with #1, disagreed with #2.

Now, there might be a theological fine point to be made here, but for the person that was just born, there is no difference.

 

[FrigidDev]

We can say quite a frw things that are not "too far off" but that lead to two different paths. We are not "on the way to Hell" because we are born, but I get what you are saying.

I do not believe that because of Adams sin alone we are condemned. I believe that we are condemned because we are sinners. It is not a matter of being flawed, per se, but a matter of the will and desire.

That's what the Bible says though.

If you left a child alone in the wilderness(and fed him from afar or whatever), he would still sin. We don't learn it, it's what we are from birth.

 

[Internet Theologian]

We can say quite a frw things that are not "too far off" but that lead to two different paths. We are not "on the way to Hell" because we are born, but I get what you are saying.

I do not believe that because of Adams sin alone we are condemned. I believe that we are condemned because we are sinners. It is not a matter of being flawed, per se, but a matter of the will and desire.

Nope. I don't believe the above view to be the scriptural view at all because candidly it isn't.

Ephesians 2:3...and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.'

All would be headed to hell except for the election of God, even the elect are included in the above. It doesn't make logical sense in a way, but there it is.

 

[JonC]

Nope. I don't believe the above view to be the scriptural view at all because candidly it isn't.

Ephesians 2:3...and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.'

All would be headed to hell except for the election of God, even the elect are included in the above. It doesn't make logical sense in a way, but there it is.

Candidly, you have taken a fraction of a passage as a proof text.

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh a and following its desires and thoughts.

All WERE headed for Hell, but God saved a people (they didn't save themselves or each other). Salvation is wholly a work of God. But we were condemned for being dead in our sins and transgressions....our sinfulness...our sinful nature of which our sins bear witness....not because birth is considered sinful.