Philippians 3:12

[The Biblicist]

Philip. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul flatly denies that he has attained being "PERFECT" in spite of the fact that Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your father in heaven IS perfect" (Mt. 5:46).

1. So has Christ commanded what even an apostle cannot "attain"?

2. Is the Apostle disobedient to Christ's command?

3. Was Christ defining the true standard of righteousness demanded by the Law of God that no man can PERSONALLY attain outside of glorification?

The second half of the verse demonstrates that in spite of failing to attain being "perfect" that it is still the goal/pursuit/aim of Paul - "but I follow after" demonstrating it is the immutable quest for every true child of God regardless if it can only be attained in glorification.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Philip. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul flatly denies that he has attained being "PERFECT" in spite of the fact that Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your father in heaven IS perfect" (Mt. 5:46).

1. So has Christ commanded what even an apostle cannot "attain"?

2. Is the Apostle disobedient to Christ's command?

3. Was Christ defining the true standard of righteousness demanded by the Law of God that no man can PERSONALLY attain outside of glorification?

The second half of the verse demonstrates that in spite of failing to attain being "perfect" that it is still the goal/pursuit/aim of Paul - "but I follow after" demonstrating it is the immutable quest for every true child of God regardless if it can only be attained in glorification.

You focus on only one aspect of that verse and totally ignore the second part

but I follow after, if that I may apprehend

Just because he hasn't attained perfection doesn't mean Paul stopped trying to apprehend what Christ intended for him.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What I find interesting about this chapter and am interested in your perspective Biblicist is from the passage previous to your quoted passage.

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

How do you take this passage that Paul would not only like to know the power of the resurrection but to Participate in suffering. I find that curious and protestants generally don't like the idea of participating in suffering but what is Paul getting at here according to you? And why say "Somehow attaining"

As I've said I'm interested in your reply.

 

[Moriah]

Philip. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul flatly denies that he has attained being "PERFECT" in spite of the fact that Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your father in heaven IS perfect" (Mt. 5:46).

1. So has Christ commanded what even an apostle cannot "attain"?

2. Is the Apostle disobedient to Christ's command?

3. Was Christ defining the true standard of righteousness demanded by the Law of God that no man can PERSONALLY attain outside of glorification?

The second half of the verse demonstrates that in spite of failing to attain being "perfect" that it is still the goal/pursuit/aim of Paul - "but I follow after" demonstrating it is the immutable quest for every true child of God regardless if it can only be attained in glorification.

We are still in human bodies that are slowly deteriorating every day that does NOT mean we sin with our bodies.

 

[DHK]

We are still in human bodies that are slowly deteriorating every day that does NOT mean we sin with our bodies.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Your members (the parts of your body) are instruments of unrighteousness unto sin.

 

[The Biblicist]

You focus on only one aspect of that verse and totally ignore the second part.

Take more time reading my post before responding. Look at the last part of my post. I did not "totally" ignore the second half:

The second half of the verse demonstrates that in spite of failing to attain being "perfect" that it is still the goal/pursuit/aim of Paul - "but I follow after" demonstrating it is the immutable quest for every true child of God regardless if it can only be attained in glorification.

 

[The Biblicist]

We are still in human bodies that are slowly deteriorating every day that does NOT mean we sin with our bodies.

First, you complain to everyone else because they do not answer your questions but you do not answer any of mine.

Second, why can't you simply admit to the truth Paul so obviously admits when he said, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:" He is denying he has attained perfection. He does not live above sin. Paul can admit this why can't you?

Third, this text says nothing about his body, but as DHK rightly pointed out the body can be yeilded unto sin by Christians and Romans 6 proves that.

 

[Moriah]

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Your members (the parts of your body) are instruments of unrighteousness unto sin.

You are exposed repeatedly. See how you took the scripture and saw only evil in it? The scripture says, “Do not offer any part of yourself to sin…” You say, “Your members (the parts of your body) are instruments of unrighteousness unto sin.” This is an example of your work that should be remembered for the work that it shows to be.

Romans 6:13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

 

[Moriah]

First, you complain to everyone else because they do not answer your questions but you do not answer any of mine.

It is almost impossible for me to continue reading anything you post.

Second, why can't you simply admit to the truth Paul so obviously admits when he said, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:" He is denying he has attained perfection. He does not live above sin. Paul can admit this why can't you?

Paul does NOT say what you say.

Third, this text says nothing about his body, but as DHK rightly pointed out the body can be yeilded unto sin by Christians and Romans 6 proves that.

Go read about the evidence I will copy and paste to show when the time comes up what kind of spirit DHK has concerning the scriptures and sin.

 

[The Biblicist]

What I find interesting about this chapter and am interested in your perspective Biblicist is from the passage previous to your quoted passage.

How do you take this passage that Paul would not only like to know the power of the resurrection but to Participate in suffering. I find that curious and protestants generally don't like the idea of participating in suffering but what is Paul getting at here according to you? And why say "Somehow attaining"

As I've said I'm interested in your reply.

This is going off track from the OP but I will answer your question. I believe that Paul gave up his own righteousnesses and considered them as dung (vv. 4-5)- repentance from dead works and received the righteousness of Christ by justification through faith. (vv. 6-9) - thus he wins him by faith at the point of justification/regeneration. However, having been justified by faith he also wants to know him beyond mere justification by faith but by being conformed by progressive sanctification in order to EXPERIENTIALLY know his death and resurrected life. This is exactly what he says in Romans 8:12-13. Experiencing the resurrecting power of Christ is precisely what he talks about in Romans 6:6-10. He wants to be a stand out from the dead right now by experiencing the power of the resurrection life of Jesus Christ (v. 11).

His present experience of this resurrection life does not mean he now has attained being "perfect" (v. 12) but it is the modus operandi in his pursuit of perfection which will occur in the resurrection of his body (vv. 20-21).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Take more time reading my post before responding. Look at the last part of my post. I did not "totally" ignore the second half:

The second half of the verse demonstrates that in spite of failing to attain being "perfect" that it is still the goal/pursuit/aim of Paul - "but I follow after" demonstrating it is the immutable quest for every true child of God regardless if it can only be attained in glorification.

Yes but your discourse excluded it from the questions therefore it seems the questions might be different had it been included in your thought.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is almost impossible for me to continue reading anything you post.

Seems you have the same problem with reading the scriptures too!

Paul does NOT say what you say.

He bluntly states he has not yet attained perfection but still pursues it.

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after...."

Can't get it much clearer than that! Why don't you go find youself a rediculous translation by someone so you can make it say what you want it to say?

Go read about the evidence I will copy and paste to show when the time comes up what kind of spirit DHK has concerning the scriptures and sin.

Why does Paul have to tell them not to do something if they could not do it anyway?????? You are still contradicting the fact that Paul denied he has attained perfection as you are inferring the very opposite by your response to Romans 6:13.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is going off track from the OP but I will answer your question. I believe that Paul gave up his own righteousnesses and considered them as dung (vv. 4-5)- repentance from dead works and received the righteousness of Christ by justification through faith. (vv. 6-9) - thus he wins him by faith at the point of justification/regeneration. However, having been justified by faith he also wants to know him beyond mere justification by faith but by being conformed by progressive sanctification in order to EXPERIENTIALLY know his death and resurrected life. This is exactly what he says in Romans 8:12-13. Experiencing the resurrecting power of Christ is precisely what he talks about in Romans 6:6-10. He wants to be a stand out from the dead right now by experiencing the power of the resurrection life of Jesus Christ (v. 11).

His present experience of this resurrection life does not mean he now has attained being "perfect" (v. 12) but it is the modus operandi in his pursuit of perfection which will occur in the resurrection of his body (vv. 20-21).

Why participate in suffering? and why "somehow attain"?

 

[The Biblicist]

Why participate in suffering? and why "somehow attain"?

Those who live righteousness shall suffer persecution (2 Tim. 3:12). Paul desired to be empowered by the resurrected life of Christ to live righteously so as to be experientially identified to Christ as that is the secret of experiencing the promised blessings here and now as well as rewards later. Another paradoxical teaching of Christ that goes along with such things as"

1. The first shall be last
2. Serve to be master
3. Suffer in order to be happy.
4. Die in order to live

 

[The Biblicist]

It is almost impossible for me to continue reading anything you post.

Here is your problem! You imagine that I promote sinfulness when in fact I promote being honest with yourself just as Paul honestly admitted he was not perfect. When you admit you are not perfect and have not attained perfection what are you admitting to? You are admitting that you are still sinful. By honestly admitting you are still sinful does not promote sinfulness but promotes honesty with your self. Paul was honest with himself but you are clearly not an honest person with yourself as you deny what Paul admits.

I hate sin and I strive against sin daily. But that does not mean I have to lie about the fact that I am still sinful and I am not perfect. Like Paul, when I sin, I confess my sin and then FORGET about the things of the past and press toward the only real rational goal for anyone who hates sin and that is perfection/sinlessness even though I realize and honestly admit that I cannot attain it here and now. Does that change my goal? No! Does that mean I have to lie and say I am not sinful? No! Does that mean when I am truthful and admit that I am still sinful that I am promoting sin? No!

You seem to think by being HONEST about yourself is to promote sin? Paul was honest and used the PRESENT TENSE in saying 'I AM" the cheif of sinners,

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.



however, you are not honest enough to admit the same are you? You can't get yourself to say the same because you don't beleive it! Thus Paul in your eyes is either a liar OR better yet, you will find some crazy translation to change Paul's words OR ignore any of his words that don't suite your imaginary doctrines.

Be honest with God's Word for a change and with yourself. You are not being honest as DHK has documented your attack upon himself and others over and over again while you are making the same charge against me and others but not honest enough to admit you are just as guilty - Be honest.

The spiritual man is the one who sees himself MORE SINFUL the closer He walk with God instead of LESS sinful. It is the lost or immature Christian who takes your position.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Those who live righteousness shall suffer persecution (2 Tim. 3:12). Paul desired to be empowered by the resurrected life of Christ to live righteously so as to be experientially identified to Christ as that is the secret of experiencing the promised blessings here and now as well as rewards later. Another paradoxical teaching of Christ that goes along with such things as"

1. The first shall be last
2. Serve to be master
3. Suffer in order to be happy.
4. Die in order to live

Continue with what you mean by the bolded part. It seems that your "experientially Identified to Christ" is not the same as Theosis. Since that is the case what promised blessings are you talking about?

 

[The Biblicist]

Continue with what you mean by the bolded part. It seems that your "experientially Identified to Christ" is not the same as Theosis. Since that is the case what promised blessings are you talking about?

Look, we are getting away from the OP and will derail it. I will start another thread on this topic.

 

[Moriah]

Here is your problem!

I do not have a problem, you do.

You imagine that I promote sinfulness when in fact I promote being honest with yourself just as Paul honestly admitted he was not perfect.

It is true you do promote sinfulness. As for you telling me to be honest, that is yet another false accusation from you. Again, you are an accuser of the brethren.

When you admit you are not perfect and have not attained perfection what are you admitting to? You are admitting that you are still sinful. By honestly admitting you are still sinful does not promote sinfulness but promotes honesty with your self. Paul was honest with himself but you are clearly not an honest person with yourself as you deny what Paul admits.

Paul does not say he is full of sin. That is your false accusations you give to Paul.

I hate sin and I strive against sin daily. But that does not mean I have to lie about the fact that I am still sinful and I am not perfect. Like Paul, when I sin, I confess my sin and then FORGET about the things of the past and press toward the only real rational goal for anyone who hates sin and that is perfection/sinlessness even though I realize and honestly admit that I cannot attain it here and now. Does that change my goal? No! Does that mean I have to lie and say I am not sinful? No! Does that mean when I am truthful and admit that I am still sinful that I am promoting sin? No!

You speak twisted gobbledygook.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Look, we are getting away from the OP and will derail it. I will start another thread on this topic.

Sorry. I didn't mean to derail the thread however with the second part of the verse in mind how does that apply to your questions. Your questions seem irrelevant with that in view.

The way I would answer your question is that though we cannot attain perfection in this world Jesus wants us to perservere in becoming like him.

 

[The Biblicist]

Paul does not say he is full of sin.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

"I AM cheif"!?! Didn't want to deal with that text did you?

You are still attempting to deny the very words of Paul in Philippians 2:12a where he explicitly admits that he is not "perfect" that he has not yet "attained" sinless perfection.

To be "sinful" does not necessarily mean one is FULL of Sin but rather they are not without sin, espeically when it is placed in a context where it is contrasted with "sinlessness" or "perfection." That is precisely the context you jerked my words from - a context of contrast with sinless perfection. Use you common sense! If you are no sinless then what does that mean? It means you are sinful or still not without sin.

Spiritually mature saints see themselves MORE SINFUL the closer they walk with God. Only the lost professor or immature Christian sees themselves as sinless or able to live above sin.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Can you say that of yourself? Can you admit "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:

Thus far you are denying about yourself what Paul admitted about himself! What about it? Can you agree with Paul's language and say what Paul said in either Philippians 3:12a or 1 Tim. 1:15b?????

I figure you will do what you normally do, change the subject, ignore the text! Surprise me and deal forthrightly with my statements for once!