Philosophical discussion about free will

You can run but you can't hide: 22. Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever''

 

Or maybe God is both totally in control AND man has free will. We can't explain it fully yet Scripture teaches it, therefore both, while seemingly contradictory, are true.

 

In my thinking God's sovereign control does not draw conflict against man's free will. Why? It is God who created man and gave to him the free will - better stated limited free will.

 

Let me get this straight -- you'd rather believe an unproven, inexplicable theory than a proven, explainable theology? Isn't that the same as rejecting the Holy Spirit (assuming that the explanation is from the Bible)?

Why do you think that God allows men to operate totally against God's will most of the time if He is totally sovereign? Does that not demonstrate to you that God has given man a will and soveriengty of his own? If God were totally sovereign, we'd be in the kingdom of God -- the eternal kingdom. There'd be no prayer "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," d-dub. Can you imagine it? Glory, glory, glory! :jesus:

Clearly somebody doesn't know what "totally sovereign" means, eh?

skypair

 

You hold to the unproven, inexplicable theory of the Trinity do you not? Why?

 

I agree. However, one must admit that the limited free will cannot sufficiently explain man's responsibility for his own sin. Regardless of where exactly you place the paradox, the paradox exists.

 

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.

That means no one can go to Jesus unless the Father draws you and those the Father draws Jesus will raise up SaN.

john.

 

Like God are you GordonSlocum? Knowledge of right and wrong does nothing for righteousness it is the ability to be righteous that is needed not just a knowing of it.

If we were in His image and likeness we would not need transforming.

I'm sure your opinion is as welcome as mine, why don't you deal with the need to be transformed?

Why does God create those He knows are going to Hell?

It's just your opinion verses scripture. PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

You can say man has free will if you like, or more correctly, God can cause you to write what He wants but He won't shift me, but it doesn't make it so.

john.

 

Agreed. God, by definition is the only uncaused being. Since He is eternally existent, the question of 'what caused God' is moot.

The basis for your reasoning is fallacious: The fact that something could exist does not mean God could create it. An eternally existent being can exist (God exists), yet God cannot create another eternally existent being - anything created would, by definition, not be eternally existent.

No, here I would not agree. God can be that was because *everything* about Him is uncaused by an outside being. That is what makes Him God. Yet even God cannot create an uncaused being - that would be a self-contradiction. Created beings, by defintion, are caused beings.

Let me be clear that I am *not* saying that God is self-determined. I am saying that God simply IS who He IS. Since man has a beginning point, it not logically possible that man can be the same. Either man is self-determined, or his nature is caused by an outside agent. Either way, man would be essentially different than God and thus any arguments for man being self-contained as a chooser fall apart. God is self-contained as a chooser only because He is eternally existent and unchanging.

More on the nature of God's choices later...gotta run to work.

If it is contra-casual, then it applies to believers only. The reason for this is because believers have two natures at work. I don't really want to get into that right now since my argument so far has centered around unregenerate man in and of himself.

 

The answer to that is obvious. To give them a chance an opportunity to over come. To make them responsible for their rejection of Christ. As long as man can't make a decision for or against then man isn't responsible.

If this is the case, then how is it a child can be raised being taught the word of God and when he gets old will not depart from it?

Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Who directed the childs steps the parent or God?.

How about what the scriptures say? Why doesn't the scriptures shift you? They plainly teach that man can be saved if he is willing to be.
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
MB

 

Hello MB.

Why does God create those He knows are going to Hell?

But God knows they are going to Hell? What chance is there to overcome?

Ok. But now you have God knowingly creating men to punish but God doesn't need our guilt to judge us. Even if we were innocent we would still be guilty because God said we are. That is the real expression of the Sovereignty of God and man's responsibility. We did nothing and get the blame. Then He made us do lots of stuff badly and we get it in the neck from Him for it.

RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

See what I mean? We have a valid theology whether it is liked or not.

PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

How can you say that?

God. And God directed the parents into using the means given for our kids to grow up upright and God directs the steps of everyone the scripture says. PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

What about what the scriptures say? I did not say I ignored scripture but I ignore God when He speaks through others in the wrong religion. PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.

Scripture is my final authority. If a man is willing it is because God has made him willing ...for it is God who works in him to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13.

2 Cor 8:12 For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.
But the willingness is not there in fallen man. Enough scripture explicitly states the same yet these two verses are enough if you are willing.
PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

But you are not willing. I can't see how these scriptures can be regarded as an 'if'. If you were willing they would at least cause you pause.
The only way to get round them is to say God does not determine our steps nor does He speak through all men. Is this what you believe?

john.

 

Yeah I understood you weren't arguing that. I was arguing that God self-caused/self-exitant/undetermined nature is a true only because God is eternal existent and unchanging. In short, God's will is fully self-determined simply because God IS was He IS and always has been.

In fact, I would consider it erroneous to say God has a self-caused, or self-existant nature. If God always has been and is unchanging, then the concept of self-existant God is an oxymoron. There was never any time when He was other than what He is, thus He is not self-existant, He is simply existant, period - He IS what He IS. Self-existant carries the connatation that He could be other than what He is. The same is true of the concept of 'self-caused'. God is causeless since He has always been what He is and thus the what caused God is not an infinite regression but simply an absurdity.

Or to put it another way...(sorry, I get verbose sometimes )
You argue thus that God's nature is undetermined because it is unchanging and mysteriously infinite. On this we agree. However, you then argue that since God's nature can be undetermined, He can thus create a being which also has an undetermined nature. I, on the other hand, point out that God's nature is undetermined due to the fact that He is eternally existant. Since God cannot create a being which is eternally existant, He also cannot create a being with an undetermined nature. Undetermined nature is dependent on being eternally existant.

Because it is an extension of being eternally existant and unchanging - man can be neither.

I have not admitted that its possible with believers. Even with the believer, all choices extend from their nature. Yes, I know that will appear self-contradictory at this point. I am currently mulling over how explain it, let me just say that I feel the key is found in Rom 7. I can feel the answer intuitively, but currently don't have the tools to explain it satisfactorily.

You haven't yet shown that God makes undetermined choices, (in fact, the fact that He *can't* lie would argue that His choices can be determined) so lets set that aside altogether at this point.

So the question is then about whether choices can be determined by the chooser alone without any outside factor determining the choices in any way. You argue that God's choices are of that type. I agree. However, you then make the unsupported logical leap that (lets not get into the whole 'by what authority?' thing quite yet here ) this must mean that God has the power to create beings with the ability to make the same sort of choices. Why do I say unsupported? Because you have already admitted that what is true about God does not necessarily mean that God can create another being with the same attribute. That being true, on what logical basis do you claim God's ability to create a being with His sort of undetermined-by-outside-factors choices. You must first show that such an attribute is not the result of His being God and thus non-attributable to other beings. You haven't yet shown this (if I am in error, please post that part again because I must have missed it). I am arguing that it is, in fact, an attribute which is a product of His unique status as the eternally existant and unchanging Being.

But i don't believe the issue of the believers choice is as simple as compatibalism vs. contra-casual free will. Like I said, I can't yet explain exactly why, but I am working on it. For now, lets simply deal with the fact of the unregenerate man in and of himself. Then if we can arrive at some conclusion, we can then see if the position of the believers choice can be fit into the system.

But while I am thinking on this, can you maybe address how the fact that God *can't* lie fits into your contra-causal paradigm. That's still the biggest difficulty for me. As long as I can accept that God could possibly do anything, then I can groove (if not agree yet) with your paradigm (BTW, thanks for making much more clear what others have hinted at - I may not agree, but at least now I respect the position as worthwhile of consideration). But my groovitude runs up against the fact that there are somethings which God *can't* do.

 

This is probably getting off topic somewhat, but your obvious answer makes me very curious. Here is why:
- Lets say Bob dies without believing in Christ.
- You would agree that when God decided to create Bob (before the foundation of the world) He knew full well that Bob would go through life without believing in Christ. Correct?
- IOW, God KNEW there was NO chance that Bob would ever believe in Him. Right?
- God could have chosen to not create Bob with this knowledge that there was no possibility of Bob believing in Him. Agreed?
- Since God is responsible for Bob's existence, and God knew full well what the end result of His creating Bob would be that Bob would go to hell, how can God not be held responsible to some extend for Bob ultimately going to hell?

Sure Bob is still responsible for his own choices, but it seems God would be culpable as well since he could have prevented it by the simple expedient of not creating Bob.

 

This is my big question for Jesus. Why did you allow anyone to come into being, whom you knew would never have faith?

The sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man is an antinomy. I don't think we will ever be able to put our arms around that. Unless of course Christian universalism is true. They would claim that eventually all will come to faith. That wait in hell will be a long hard period to go through however. If it was 60 seconds....... that would be too long.

 

Hello MB.

I did not say 'How can you say that?' to the Proverb but to your 'if that is the case'.
PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

'if that is the case.' How can you say that I asked?

What you believe Pro 16:1 to say is that He doesn't determine the words people speak when the verse clearly says He does and He doesn't direct our steps when the verse, Pro 16:9 clearly says He does.

Yes. Since God said we are responsible we are responsible. If I was innocent I would still be responsible because He says so. I do not talk back to God. The "Why does He still blame us for who resists His will?" Is open for anyone with eyes to see.

Why does God create those He knows are going to Hell?
In hope they overcome?
But God knows they are going to Hell? What chance is there to overcome?

If God knows they are going to Hell they will go to Hell won't they?

Wasn't possible for Him though was it? JN 11:41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."
Jesus said His Father always hears Him but not in the garden. Jesus was refused mercy. It wasn't possible for God not to strike His Son, it was predestined. History's pivotal moment.

If man is sovereign then the king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. PR 21:1. Have another Proverb.

I made no choice. Jesus came to me and convinced me while I was an atheist. He did a similar thing to Paul if you remember.
AC 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
And He did it to them. And lydia. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. Acts 16:14.

I no longer need excuses Jesus Christ died for my sins and I have been imputed with His righteousness I confess my sins.

You run counter to scripture again. ...God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Rom 9:18. JER 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

You don't. You are supposed to ask the question "Why does He still blame us for who resists His will?" And He is then supposed to answer you, "Who are you to talk back?" But you won't ask Him the question because you don't believe Paul's conclusions of the passages preceding. "Why does He still blame us for who resists His will?"

We have a valid theology whether it is liked or not.

We have a valid theology whether it is believed or not.

And Elijah. To teach us.

He has no argument with me as I am what I am by the grace of God. If He doesn't want me to behave this way I will behave in another of His ways for me. being confident of this, that he who began a good work in me will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Php 1:6. I'm a work in progress. I have complete confidence in His promise to complete the work He started in me. My transformation is guaranteed my faith sure and certain and my soul anchored.

I listen to the argument and check what is said by scripture. If anything disagrees with scripture then it is false. That the first cause of that is God is no problem. God sends delusions and lying spirits to do His work of hardening at times. 1 Kings 22:23; 2 Thess 2:11.

I am not deceived I trust in my Saviour you are in error. The scripture says ...but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue. What does it say?

Goats are not lost, sheep are. The Good Shepherd came to find the lost and He said, "It is finished."

Rom 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

No? I have proved it true. God does not determine the steps of the wicked... Is a straight denial of PR 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends--even the wicked for a day of disaster.

PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

john.