Pictoral Chart of Revelation

[Mel Miller]

Herb,

The following is from Post #137 with no direct response from you:
You wrote:

You should be concerned more with when peace comes to the earth through the antichrist in the seals after there is no peace. He breaks that covenant of peace in the middle of the 70th week. The ignorance is yours. -- Herb Evans
______________________________________________ ____________
Herb,
“I agree with you that Seal #2 overlays Matthew 24’s sign (that Jesus gave so “we will know the End is Near” as of the Abomination STANDING IN THE TEMPLE; Matt.24:15,33! That event, I repeat, is only for the start of Dan’s 1290-Day Endtime!! The Endtime is limited by him to the FINAL 1290 days because his special concern was about events of the 3½ years which he also called the “END of TIME”; so the Seals are NOT about the first 3½ years!!! Dan.12:4,7.

The Book of Revelation allows only that Seal #1 pre-dates the Endtime! In the above quote you attempt to convince me the Chart of Revelation should include PEACE that Antichrist brings to the world AFTER He desecrates the Temple at MIDWEEK when he takes peace from earth!! You continue that attempt in the following!!!

“No”, you wrote, “I mean the seals overlay MOST of Matthew 24; the seals are a general description of Daniel's 70th week. The mid point of Matthew 24 is when the abomination of desolation comes on the scene. Man, this pontucation stuff is fun”. -- Herb Evans


General Description ONLY of the 2nd Half of that Week!

No, a general description of the whole week. -- Herb Evans

I believe Matt.24:4-14 deals with persecution of Christians prior to AD 70 and the entire Church age since then! A "general description".

The question that Jesus is answering here is when the end of the world would be. Although this may include some of our age it merges into something else, for Verse 8 says that this is the beginning of sorrows, which I believe refers to the beginning of the first half of the week. At the beginning of sorrows the antichrist makes the covenant, creating peace and then breaks it at the mid point. -- Herb Evans


But the midpoint of the 70th Seven is Matt.24:15 at the start of the great tribulation!! It's the first specific sign of the Endtime that continues for 1290 (less 30 days) according to Dan.12:11; Matt.24:22; Rev.11:3. After Rev.12:5, the Endtime begins with the 1260 days of Rev.12:6...with 3 1/2 times left after the START of the Midweek Abomination!!!

Some of this, I agree with, but the Book is full of parentheticals and overlaps. That is why it cannot be taken serially. -- Hreb Evans

You must think “pontification is fun” by squeezing two sets of 1260 days in the Chart of Revelation. There's only one period of 3 1/2 times for the Abomination in the Temple! Seal #2 cannot include a PEACE that you think he brings to the world after desecrating the
Temple! Antichrist will sign and then break the Covenant forged by Babylon the Great prior to the Endtime!!!

Well, what do you do with the first half of the 70th week, dsicard it? --Herb Evans

The 7-Year Covenant of Dan.9:27 will be a slick opportunity, a Trojan-Horse type of deception that produces a short respite in wars to destroy Israel! Before that occurs, Babylon the Great will commit acts of “fornication” by which all “nations and tongues and rulers” realize a peace that results in Israel removing the walls to protect her cities!! Ezek.38-39. Babylon the Great fulfills Dan.2:40-43 before anyone can be certain of the identity of Antichrist!!!

The Question to settle is not:

“How much of Daniel's 70th week is covered in the seals, which can be disputed”. --Herb Evans

The question to settle is: “Why do Daniel and Jesus (and Revelation) restrict the ENDTIME to the second half and NOT the first half”?

He will be just “one of many” who agree to the “mix among the seed of men” created by Mystery Babylon before her destruction by Ten Kings at Midweek!!!

[Watch now as the Pope begins to effect the creation of Babylon the Great as part of fulfilling Seal #One PRIOR TO THE ENDTIME! There can be no "taking away of peace" until it's there to "take away"!! The attempt to "mix the iron and clay in the seed of men" is now in full force!!! Dan.2:40-43].

Antichrist does not establish peace after he breaks the Covenant! No shred of evidence exists that he will rule the world with power to create the Covenant!!

No one ever said that he did. He make peace at the beginning of the 70th week and breaks the peace in the middle. You must have misunderstood me. -- Herb Evans



Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Chart of Revelation

Herb,

For three reasons the Chart on Revelation cannot include Seals 2-7 in the first half of Daniel’s 70th Seven. One: The Signs we look for include the midweek placing of the Abomination in the Temple and that’s indicated by the 2nd Seal! Two: The Day and Hour Christ comes to “gather the elect from earth to heaven” requires that all the martyrs must be killed before the Resurrection takes place at the 7th Trumpet!! Three: Dispensational Charts are based on the assumption that our Resurrection can occur “at any moment” prior to the 70th Seven instead of “after great tribulation”!!!

I wrote:

The midpoint of the 70th Seven is Matt.24:15 at the start of the great tribulation! It's the first (but not only) specific sign of the Endtime that continues for 1290 (less 30 days) according to Dan.12:11; Matt.24:22; Rev.11:3. After Rev.12: 5, the Endtime begins with the 1260 days of Rev.12:6...with 3½ times left at the START of the Midweek Abomination!!! Rev.12:14.

The Book is full of parentheticals and overlaps. That is why it cannot be taken serially. -- Hreb Evans

There's only one period of 3½ times for the Abomination in the Temple! Seal #2 ends the PEACE so that Seal #1 ALONE refers to events prior to the 1260-day Endtime!! Only that Seal refers to Pre-Endtime Events. Seal One alone can include the Covenant forged by Babylon the Great prior to the start of the Endtime!!!

Well, what do you do with the first half of the 70th week, discard it? --Herb

No Chart on Daniel would exclude the first half; but the first half is not a part of the Chart of Revelation since it restricts Resurrection/
Rapture to the 7th Trumpet! That “Last Trump sounds in the days after God’s mystery was finished”!! Rev.10:6-7. Dispensational Charts of Revelation force the Rapture before the 70th Seven after assuming that Believers do not “look for Signs; but for the Son”!!!

The Peace-Covenant is a specific sign; but neither Jesus nor Revelation mentions it as a Sign for the Endtime Chart or a part of the 70th Seven. Your 7-Year Chart assumes the first half is NOT a time during which Church Believers will anticipate the End is Near; and KNOW it when they see the Abomination. The Pre-Trib Doctrine STANDS of FALLS on whether we are to look for any specific Signs. Jesus says we will “see the Abomination in the Temple”. You say we won’t be here to see the Abomination in the Temple.

That’s why it’s ILLOGICAL to include the Rapture prior to the signing of the Peace Covenant! The Day of the Lord includes the Rapture!! But you can’t start the Day of the Lord 7 years before Christ comes if the Rapture and Resurrection occur at the 7th Trumpet!!!

We are to look for signs as well as looking for Christ…Signs that render His coming certain within 1260+ days; but with the 1290 days of Daniel “cut short”. Matt.24:22.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mel Miller]Herb,

For three reasons the Chart on Revelation cannot include Seals 2-7 in the first half of Daniel’s 70th Seven. One: The Signs we look for include the midweek placing of the Abomination in the Temple and that’s indicated by the 2nd Seal!

I am not looking for a sign; I am looking for a Saviour. The midweek abomination is part of pretrib rapture theology. Where do you see a sign or the abomination in the seals at all? -- Hreb Evans

Two: The Day and Hour Christ comes to “gather the elect from earth to heaven” requires that all the martyrs must be killed before the Resurrection takes place at the 7th Trumpet!!

Good trick if you could prove this pontifiaction instead of interpolating it. Circular reasning at best, fantasy at the worst. -- Herb Evans

Three: Dispensational Charts are based on the assumption that our Resurrection can occur “at any moment” prior to the 70th Seven instead of “after great tribulation”!!!

Now, you go it. that's me. -- herb Evans

I wrote:

The midpoint of the 70th Seven is Matt.24:15 at the start of the great tribulation! It's the first (but not only) specific sign of the Endtime that continues for 1290 (less 30 days) according to Dan.12:11; Matt.24:22; Rev.11:3. After Rev.12: 5, the Endtime begins with the 1260 days of Rev.12:6...with 3½ times left at the START of the Midweek Abomination!!! Rev.12:14.

The Book is full of parentheticals and overlaps. That is why it cannot be taken serially. -- Herb Evans

There's only one period of 3½ times for the Abomination in the Temple! Seal #2 ends the PEACE so that Seal #1 ALONE refers to events prior to the 1260-day Endtime!! Only that Seal refers to Pre-Endtime Events. Seal One alone can include the Covenant forged by Babylon the Great prior to the start of the Endtime!!!

Well, what do you do with the first half of the 70th week, discard it? --Herb

No Chart on Daniel would exclude the first half; but the first half is not a part of the Chart of Revelation since it restricts Resurrection/
Rapture to the 7th Trumpet! That “Last Trump sounds in the days after God’s mystery was finished”!! Rev.10:6-7. Dispensational Charts of Revelation force the Rapture before the 70th Seven after assuming that Believers do not “look for Signs; but for the Son”!!!


No, you force it after the beginning of the Sevetieth week. -- Herb Evans

The Peace-Covenant is a specific sign; but neither Jesus nor Revelation mentions it as a Sign for the Endtime Chart or a part of the 70th Seven. Your 7-Year Chart assumes the first half is NOT a time during which Church Believers will anticipate the End is Near; and KNOW it when they see the Abomination. The Pre-Trib Doctrine STANDS of FALLS on whether we are to look for any specific Signs. Jesus says we will “see the Abomination in the Temple”. You say we won’t be here to see the Abomination in the Temple.

We will not be here for the abomination; we will have left 3 1/2 years before it. Again, I am not looking for a sign, I am looking for a Saviour. John R. Rice wrote Jesus is coming signs or no signs. -- Herb Evans

That’s why it’s ILLOGICAL to include the Rapture prior to the signing of the Peace Covenant! The Day of the Lord includes the Rapture!! But you can’t start the Day of the Lord 7 years before Christ comes if the Rapture and Resurrection occur at the 7th Trumpet!!!


Here is where you make your mistake. The day of the Lord begins with the rapture, but it begins on the earth. In heaven the rapture begins the day of Christ. That is very logical; it is your plan that is illogical. -- Hreb Evans

We are to look for signs as well as looking for Christ…Signs that render His coming certain within 1260+ days; but with the 1290 days of Daniel “cut short”. Matt.24:22.

If you would but study the context in Judea with Jews in the tibulation after the abomination, you would see the pre-trib position. Present day Christians will never see the tribulation or the abomination. Matt. 24:22 is not yours; it is mine. -- Herb Evans

 

Matt. 24:22 is not yours; it is mine. -- Herb Evans
Really, never heard of a verse of the Bible belonging to anyone.

 

Oh no? Perhaps it is because none of his words are yours.

Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

-- Herb Evans

 

Matt. 24:22 is not yours; it is mine. -- Herb Evans

Yes, Matthew 24:22 is very pretribulation rapture/resurrection
not post-trib-only.

Matthew 24:22 (KJV1611 Edition):
And except those dayes should be shortned,
there should no flesh be saued:
but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.

Yes, the elect here are the Jews being protected by
the very Hand of God (Revelation 12:14).
The elect here are the largely Gentile Church Age
elect Christian saints in heaven. They plead for
their friends and neightbors to be spared
the tribulation (praying in heaven); just like
they pleaded on earth that they might
be eternally saved.

 

Ok, Lets state it nicely. From your theological arguments, no verses belong to you. The Bible is the Word of God that leads to faith in Christ. It is not your personal toy, nor do you have any special insight into the Scripture.

 

Chart of Revelation

PLEASE SEE CORRECTED POST #149

_____________________________________________________________

SaturnNeptune,

I have noticed the kindness of your spirit in contrast to the unkindness and superior attitude shown by Herb Evans. Today, on another thread, the moderator closed it for good because of his "vitriolic" remarks.

Before 11/25 (when I asked him to "lay off" because his attitude of superiority was constantly surfacing from beneath his repeated caustic remarks) he was steadily referring to me as one with all the answers like: "Just ask Mel who alone has the truth; or that my propaganda is convoluted and warped and my use of a Greek word made him think of a Japanese monster or that I was speaking in tongues; that I want to be heard for my much speaking; that I think my commentary is equivalent to scripture; that my pontifications are like the 7th Day Adventist type of interpolations, with fanciful interpretations and pontifications and mathematical gyrations that are classic...even accusing me of calling him `ignorant' when I actually wrote that he was `NOT ignorant'"!


For the past week he has perhaps realized that such tactics are not conducive to helpful discussions after agreeing to "lay of". But, when you defended my having
applied Matt.24:22 to shortening the great tribulation and he became cocky by saying this verse was "His Verse and Not Mine", his superiority complex shows up again by his response to your words that "No verse belongs to any one
person", saying: "Perhaps none of the words of Jesus belong to you"!


This is sarcasm of the most dispicable kind! It is rooted in his refusal to treat
you and me with the kind of respect that should characterize a Christian!! Maybe
he will realize he is turning people away rather than drawing them to him!!!


Mel Miller

 

Chart of Revelation

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturneptune
Matt. 24:22 is not yours; it is mine. -- Herb Evans
Really, never heard of a verse of the Bible belonging to anyone.

This may be a needed correction for my 12:45 Post #148:

Saturneptune,

I have noticed the kindness of your spirit in contrast to the unkindness and superior attitude shown by Herb Evans. Today, on another thread, the moderator closed it for good because of his "vitriolic" remarks.

Before 11/25 (when I asked him to "lay off" because his attitude of superiority was constantly surfacing from beneath his repeated caustic remarks) he was steadily referring to me as one with all the answers like: "Just ask Mel who alone has the truth; or that my propaganda is convoluted and warped and my use of a Greek word made him think of a Japanese monster or that I was speaking in tongues; that I want to be heard for my much speaking; that I think my commentary is equivalent to scripture; that my pontifications are like the 7th Day Adventist type of interpolations, with fanciful interpretations and pontifications and mathematical gyrations that are classic...even accusing me of calling him `ignorant' when I actually wrote that he was `NOT ignorant'"!


For the past week he has perhaps realized that such tactics are not conducive to helpful discussions after agreeing to "lay of". But, when you defended my having
applied Matt.24:22 to shortening the great tribulation and he became cocky by saying this verse was "His Verse and Not Mine", his superiority complex shows up again by his response to your words that "No verse belongs to any one
person", saying: "Perhaps none of his words belong to you"!


This could be sarcasm of the most dispicable kind if "his words" actually reflect what Jesus meant about the great tribulation (and NOT Herb's and Ed Edwards' application to a Pre-Trib context)! This sarcastic attitude is rooted in Herb's refusal to treat you and me with the kind of respect that should characterize a Christian!! Maybe he will realize he is turning people away rather than drawing them to him!!!


Mel Miller

 

Mr Miller,
Thank you for your kind words. My generation's (baby boomer) exposure to the end times was greatly influenced by people such as Hal Lindsay. There was a time when there was no doubt in my mind the sequence of events and what all of the verses in Daniel, Ezekiel, Matthew, Thessolonians, and Revelation meant. There was a time when there was no doubt the Lord would return in my lifetime. As time has passed, it is hard to know what to think any more. One can see where the verses can be read certain ways, where one group of verses can occur before others in the time sequence, and then, the greatest problem we have, is assuming that time, as we know it now, is ushered into eternity and end time events. With the pre trib, mid trib, post trib, and all the different millenials, it is quite confusing.

Any view can be respected. Ed Edwards is a very learned man on the subject, as are you and Herb. What drives me up a wall is someone turning their opinion into the Truth of God, and literally calling others heretics that do not agree with them. There is a thread going on faith, and this same individual started the same old, tired calvinism vs free will debate in the middle of it, and used the same terms and hate for those who did not agree with him. I do not even care which side the guy took, it was the attitude.

I have no tolerance of arrogance. This is something maybe the Holy Spirit needs to make me more Christ like about. How can a sinful, flawed created being act arrogant before anything or anybody is the way I see it.

God bless you and you ministries.

Michael

 

Well, Herb Evans gets weary of ankle biters who want to discuss Herb Evans, but are unable to discuss the issues at hand. The best part of it they cannot report on Herb Evans accurately. So, for fear that this thread will be closed because of Herb Evans, I am terminating my part in this thread due to the whining. -- Herb Evans

 

Pictorial Chart of Revelation

Michael,

Thank you for the quick response. I was raised to believe three basic “facts”:

1. Christ may come “at any moment” because He said “no one knows the day”.
2. The Church will be taken to heaven before God restarts the “clock” for Israel.
3. Therefore, we are not to “look for Signs; but only for the Son from heaven.”

I was taught from 1932 to 1940 by a Plymouth Brethren Pastor in Lansing, MI.
At Moody, I was under the teaching of H. A. Ironside from 1940 to 1943. As a
student at Columbia Bible College from 43-45 I faced the challenge that Jesus
did not teach that He might come “at any moment”. I was shocked at first.

When I realized Jesus teaches Endtime believers to look for specific signs; that
He “will raise up every, all believers on the last day” and we must be worthy of
Him at His “Coming and Presence”, I began to question the basis for believing
God will remove the Church to heaven before the start of Daniel’s 70th Seven.

I also had to deal with whether salvation during the “tribulation period” will
be obtained by grace through faith alone; or if it involves the restoration of
Jewish sacrifices and whether Gentiles would be part of the Bride of Christ.

When I realized the purpose of the “great tribulation” is to both prepare the
Church as faithful witnesses even unto death, as well as to prepare for the
restoration of Israel at His “Coming and Presence” (or any of seven words
used of His glorious return), I knew my understanding of God’s plan must
allow for unbelievers, mainly Israel, to be saved on the very Day He appears!

It took years of study to realize God’s plan for the Church is different than His
plan for the Jews in bringing salvation to millions of Gentiles in the Millennium
while the Martyrs for Christ will “reign with Christ in heaven for 1000 years”!

I’m happy to meet a serious-minded student who still seeks to know the word
and not just what men have taught that conflicts with John 6:39-40, 44, 54.
Mel

 

Pictorial Chart of Revelation

____________________________________________________________

Herb,

I'm sorry you wouldn't see fit to take a position of respect for an elder
in the faith. You have a brilliant, analytical mind. You show real genius.

This next quotes reveal my assessment. It's too bad if you choose not
to use your talent by withdrawing. Am I one who is guilty of "whining".

Do you really regard correctness as no excuse for ignorance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Butler
Dr. Herb,

Don't be too hard on Ed Sutton. Since you are fairly new to the board, you probably are not aware that Bro. Ed's alter ego is the Language Cop. He is the resident grammarian for the Baptist Board. He is self-appointed, of course, but he speaks with authority nonetheless.

I held the same job for my many years as a television news anchor and executive. I was the Grammar Phantom, who operated in secret for a while, slipping furtive notes to the young reporters who were either careless with, or ignorant of, the language. My boss finally brought me out of the closet and made me the newsroom authority on the correct use of the language. With Ed Sutton on the job, my services are not required here.

Most of the time, Bro. Ed applies his corrections with a light touch, with a little sharper edge on other occasions. I have found him to be right on every occasion he has donned his cape and costume and emerged from the phone booth. We would all do well to heed his counsel if we want our posts' credibility not to be diminished


Your Response to Tom Butler:

Well, I fancy myself as the tact and conduct cop that does not regard correctness to be an excuse for ignorance. Perhaps, he will read this response to his action.

In reference to your recent injudicious correspondence, such a nugatory obloquy is typical of maladjusted malcontents. Your maladroit and mordacious invectives against ineradicable and indomitable spellers are designed to ingratiate you with your spelling bee contemporaries and counterparts. Your retrograde transmutation is reflective of a long held predisposition and predilection to a perfectionist posture, which lacks experiential redemption. Your discomfort among defective spellers, who are not cognizant of their inadequacy is understandable. Still, your insolent and petulant raillery is no substitute for having polemics and apologetics with substance. Your invisible exegesis and corrections are typical of a pointed headed juvenescence among isagogic perception.

May I give you an "ad litem" explanation of your problem. Neurasthenia has, no doubt, taken its toll on you. You are to be pitied. Your transparent dissimulation, passing yourself off as a latitudinarian, has proved to be a lubricious perfidy. You have obviously resorted to malfeasance and malversation, subtly undermining your Baptist brethren with meaningless and unnecessary rebuke. Evidently, you had no desire in your correction missives to be either lucid or understood.

Now, I know that you will continue to impugn and oppugn our grammatical snd spelling errors. This is your imperceptible right as a arrogant Pharisee. You represent those, who are involved in the "hyper-necessitarianism" heresy, who resort to malevolence towards issue oriented, irrefragable, scriptural arguments.

*Now, here is what I really think of your spelling Bee. It is an immense, incalculable, immaterial IMAGINATION; an inappropriate, indiscrete, imperious INTERPRETATION; an inept, inconceivable, incompatible, incredible INCONSISTENCY; an improper, improbable, impractical IMPOSSIBILITY; an implacable, inexorable, insufficient IMPERCEPTIBILITY; an impoverished, impecunious, insubstantial INNOVATION; an idiotic, imbecilic, intoxicating INEBRIATION; an idyllic, inane, ideological INCREDIBILITY; an inscrutable, incomprehensible, insupportable INFATUATION; an injudicious, injurious, insidious INSANITY; an illegible, illiterate, inexplicable IMPOSTER; an illegitimate, illicit, invalid, INSINUATION; an infectious, incurable, incorrigible INCONGRUITY; an illegal, indictable, impeachable IMITATION; an irremissible, irremediable, irreparable, irresolvable, IRRECONCILABILITY; an inordinate, indefinite, indescribable, inexcusable, INTUITION; an intolerable, impertinent, irrelevant INTIMATION; an impish, incurious, impetuous INCANTATION; an invidious, intrusive, invective INTRIGUE; an inexact, indistinct, indecipherable INVENTION; an infantile, illative, infeasible, INCORPREALITY; an incredulous, irrational, illogical, unpardonable, correctionism, whose arguments spread out into shallowness, enlarge into smallness, and increase into nothingness.

–by Herb Evans

P.S. No doubt there are some spelling errors in this missive!

Mel Miller
PS. You may be a good "conduct cop"; but please show some "tact".
Let not the absence of "ignorance" be a substitute for "correctness".
I mean your point is well taken if you apply its stringency to spelling.
Quote is #10 Post on thread, "Local Body of Christ," from Nov.2, '06.

 

Mel Miller: //I was taught from 1932 to 1940 by a Plymouth Brethren Pastor
in Lansing, MI. At Moody, I was under the teaching of H. A. Ironside
from 1940 to 1943. As a student at Columbia Bible College from 43-45
I faced the challenge that Jesus did not teach that He might
come “at any moment”. I was shocked at first.//

My pastor was taught at SouthWestern Baptist in Ft. Worth, Tx
in themid 60's. He said at that time that all the professors and about
80% of the students were a-mill (spiritual Messanic Kingdom)
postribs (a physical Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation ONLY).
He didn't tell me this until the late 1990s, i was suprised
For in the late 1960s I was being taught
in Oklahoma by a non-Seminary/self taught pastor about
the pre-mil. (Second Coming before the physical Messanic Kingdom)
pretrib (physical rapture before the Tribualtion & after also) belief.
Of course, later I studied the whole matter on my own and
see every reason to remain pretrib and pre-mill.
So my chart of Revelation will always show a rapture/resurrection
BEFORE the Tribulation Period and the Second Coming of Jesus
before the physical Millinnial Kingdom.

 

Chart of Revelation

Ed,

Thank you, but how do you "alone as you state" find a pre-trib rapture
in the one passage on which 99 percent of evangelicals agree refers to
a Post-Trib Seconc Coming?

Dear Ed,
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"My chart of Revelation will always show a rapture/resurrection BEFORE the Tribulation Period and the Second Coming of Jesus before the physical Millinnial Kingdom".
_____________________________________________________________

I note you put the first "BEFORE" in large caps but not the second one!

If Matt.25 refers to the nations saved BEFORE the 1000 years begins, then Jesus refers to those who will be "kept alive" because they "beg to escape and prevail to stand before the Son of Man"!! Luke 17:33; Luke 21:36.This means the "sheep nations" are saved at the beginning; but must wait until the end of the Millennium to "inherit the eternal kingdom" on the New Earth!!! Rev.21:24-26; Matt.25:32-34.

I note again your penchant for not accepting the obvious reference to
the timing of a specific event!

This penchant of yours occurs in teaching the "gathering" of Matt.24:31
describes a "pre-trib rapture" when the actual time Jesus gives is "after
the great tribulation"! Matt.24:29. You see no contradiction with lifting Matt.24:31 "out of context" to insert the time for Rapture before the great tribulation!! Jesus describes the "rapture" but does not identify it in the Matt.24 passage as the time for the "Bema Seat of Judgment"!!!

So where is the Rapture and Bema Seat in relation to those "Kept Alive"?

Jesus identifies the exact timing for the the Bema Seat, in Matt.16:27, is
when He brings His rewards with Him for every believer at His coming in glory; but you claim our rewards will be received before He comes in glory! Likewise, you claim He "separates sheep nations" from the goats at the start of the Millennium when He does not give the exact timing!! "The separation of nations" in Matt.25:32-34 can take place at no other time if the "nations coming against the Saints at the END of the Millennium are the "goat nations" that are "devoured by fire"!!! Rev.20:8-9.

Your Assumptions could once again be geared to the wrong timing:

Satan will "deceive the NATIONS" at the end of Christ's 1000-Year Reign!
No identifiable "nations" exist who may "treat the Jews well" before then!!
You cannot know what or if nations will bless Israel under the Antichrist!!!

It need not say the sheep are "living survivors of the great tribulation"!
And no Scripture must say there will be "goat nations" before the end!!
No nation will be "kept alive" and immediately cast to Hell 1000 years!!!

It will take the Millennium to determine who "inherits the eternal kingdom" on earth based on their works rather than "inhabiting the New Jerusalem" based on salvation by grace thru faith alone! No one remains in Hell during the Millennium except the two Beasts!! All who are destined to Hell at the start of the Millennium must be in Hades until or at the "second death", including the potential "goat nations devoured by fire" who are deceived by Satan and come against the Saints at the end of the Millennium!!! Rev.20:8-9.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Nice chart. Too bad it's not in a format that can be printed.

 

Ed Edwards, Quote:
__________________________________________________ ___________
"My chart of Revelation will always show a rapture/resurrection BEFORE the Tribulation Period and the Second Coming of Jesus before the physical Millinnial Kingdom".
__________________________________________________ ___________

Mel Miller: //I note you put the first "BEFORE" in large caps but not the second one!//

I type fast. Here we go:

My chart of Revelation will always show a rapture/resurrection BEFORE the Tribulation Period and the Second Coming of Jesus BEFORE the physical Millinnial Kingdom.

Mel Miller: //Jesus identifies the exact timing for the the Bema Seat, in Matt.16:27, is
when He brings His rewards with Him for every believer at His coming in glory; but you claim our rewards will be received before He comes in glory!//

You err in what I claim. Jesus comes in Glory twice: once for the
Church Age Saints (Gentiles), once for the Tribulation Saints (Jews).

Mel Miller: //If Matt.25 refers to the nations saved BEFORE the 1000 years begins, then Jesus refers to those who will be "kept alive" because they "beg to escape and prevail to stand before the Son of Man"!! Luke 17:33; Luke 21:36.This means the "sheep nations" are saved at the beginning; but must wait until the end of the Millennium to "inherit the eternal kingdom" on the New Earth!!! Rev.21:24-26; Matt.25:32-34.//

You err. The eternally lost citizens of the 'nations' who get
saved as nations for the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom have a chance to
be individually saved for eternity. Catch the difference:
temporal salvation and eternal salvation. Until you distinguish
between the two, you will be confused.

 

Mel Miller: //This penchant of yours occurs in teaching the "gathering" of Matt.24:31
describes a "pre-trib rapture" when the actual time Jesus gives is "after
the great tribulation"! Matt.24:29. You see no contradiction with lifting Matt.24:31 "out of context" to insert the time for Rapture before the great tribulation!! Jesus describes the "rapture" but does not identify it in the Matt.24 passage as the time for the "Bema Seat of Judgment"!!!//

Your guess leads to contradictions.
My guess leads to no contradictions.
Speaking of 'context', how do you use Matthew 24:3
according to your 'end of the Tribulation' rapture only theory?

Feel free to use the 'kai's in Matthew 24 as the outline.

-------------------------------------------------
here is my major outline using the 'kai's
--------------------------------------------------
Scripture is from the KJV1611 Edition

Mat 24:3 And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, the Disciples came vnto him priuately, saying,
I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

That was the order in which the questions were asked.

Here is the time order of the fullfillment of these events:

I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,

Here is the question & the scripture in the order events come down:

I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
Mat 24:4 And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Take heed that no man deceiue you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ: and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:6 And yee shall heare of warres, and rumors of warres: See that yee be not troubled: for all these things must come to passe, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdome against kingdome, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diuers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrowes.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliuer you vp to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and yee shall bee hated of all nations for my names sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false Prophets shall rise, and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquitie shal abound, the loue of many shall waxe cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure vnto the end, the same shall be saued.
Mat 24:14 And this Gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the world,
for a witnesse vnto al nations, and then shall the end come.

III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world? (world should be 'age')

Mat 24:31 And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together his Elect from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learne a parable of the figtree: when his branch is yet tender, and putteth
foorth leaues, yee know that Summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise yee, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is neere, euen at the doores.
Mat 24:34 Uerely I say vnto you, this generation shall not passe, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heauen and earth shall passe away, but my wordes shall not passe away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and houre knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heauen, but my Father onely.
Mat 24:37 But as the dayes of Noe were, so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the dayes that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking,
marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke,
Mat 24:39 And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also
the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field, the one shalbe taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therfore, for ye know not what houre your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had knowen in what
watch the thiefe would come, he would haue watched, and would not haue suffered his house to be broken vp.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be yee also ready: for in such an houre as you thinke not, the sonne of man commeth.

II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
Mat 24:15 When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken
of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place, (who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the house top, not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field, returne backe to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And wòe vnto them that are with child, and to them that giue sucke in those dayes.
Mat 24:20 But pray yee that your flight bee not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those dayes should be shortned, there should
no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say vnto you, Loe, heere is Christ, or there: beleeue it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shal shew great signes and wonders: insomuch that (if it were possible,) they shall deceiue the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I haue told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold, he is in the desert,
goe not foorth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightening commeth out of the East, and shineth euen vnto
the West: so shall also the coming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoeuer the carkeise is, there will the Eagles bee gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those dayes, shall the Sunne
be darkned, and the Moone shall not giue her light, and the starres shall fall from
heauen, and the powers of the heauens shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man in heauen: and
then shall all the Tribes of the earth mourne, and they shall
see the Sonne of man coming in the clouds
of heauen, with power and great glory.

 

Pictorial Chart of Book of Revelation

Friends, Here is My Chart for Consideration:

SEALS

#1 - Spread of Democracy; Babylon the Great; Covenant of Dan.9:27.
#2 - Midweek - Peace taken from earth; Satan cast from heaven; Ten
Kings destroy Babylon; Matt.24:15-28; 2 Prophets begin 1260-Day Task.

--------------TRUMPETS **************** VIALS

#3 ------------ #1-4 ------------------------
------------------#5 --- Five Months of Torment on those without Seal.
#4--------------- #6 ---Third of Mankind killed over a quarter of earth.
#5-Martrys' Prayer ---------------------------- #1-5
----Two Prophets Killed ------------------------- #6 - Armies invade Israel
----- Rev.16:17 ----------"It is Done"----------- [#7] - Plague empties in Air.
#6----- Rev.6:17 ---- "Day of Wrath has come" ------ Temple Drama occurs.
#7------- Rev.8:1-5---- Court of Seal 7; Dan.7 ------ Verdict Rendered.
----Rev.11:18 --- #7 --- "God's wrath has come" ----- "The Hour of Trial"
----"Appointed time" for Resurrection, Rapture, Rewards, Destrucion of Wicked!
----7th Plague Implodes --- Rev.16:18-21 ------ #7 - Cup of Anger+Wrath!

ON THE LAST DAY:
The 6th and 7th Seals follow the 7th Vial (With 7th Vial Emptied only)! The 6th
and 7th Seals open and 6th and 7th Vials empty between 6th and 7th Trumpets!!
Christ descends from heaven; Gathers Saints from earth; Angels gather us to Jesus!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

What is the last verse for which this is applicable?

Mat 24:29 (KJV1611 Edition):
"Immediately after the tribulation ... "

I agree that Matthew 24:29-30 are applied to
by "Immediately after the tribulation"

Is Matthew 24:31 "Immediately after the tribulation"?
I say no. Post-tribs MUST say YES.
A-mills are split, some saying yes, some no.

Is Matthew 24:44 "Immediately after the tribulation"?
I say no. Post-tribs MUST say YES.
A-mills are split, some saying yes, some no.

The Parables from Mathew 24:45 - 25:30
are applicable to parts of the eschatology of
Christ, so the questions probably isn't to
important.

The Sheep & Goat Nations Judgement
of Matthew 25:30-46 I agree is
"Immediately after the tribulation".

What about Matthew 26? is that
"Immediately after the tribulation".

Somewhere after Matthew 24:29 is an end
to the applicability of "Immediately after the tribulation".