Pink on 2Thes 2:13

[J.D.]

Now you are being illogical and nonsensical. How can you be elect if you do not have salvation?

You must believe to have salvation, and you must have salvation to be elect.

Are you saying an elect person can die a lost sinner?

Who said that you have to have salvation to be elect? Aren't you turning someone's words around backwards?

 

[Iconoclast]

More importantly, the Word of God agrees with you!

No,it does not ....salvation is by, or through faith....never because of faith

 

[Winman]

First, to answer Archangel, I am using a hand held device tonight, I can only type so much text, otherwise I would show complete quotes. Those full statements do not change a thing, Henry said faith is the means, salvation the end. And you cannot be elect unless you have salvation.
To jbh28, you know election is according to foreknowledge, we have discussed this many times. God could see who would believe. Notice JFB referred to 1 Pe 1:2 in the first quote I showed.

Both of you fail to admit that some scholars agree with my interpretation. But you know they do.

 

[J.D.]

No,it does not ....salvation is by, or through faith....never because of faith

A critical distinction indeed!

 

[The Archangel]

First, to answer Archangel, I am using a hand held device tonight, I can only type so much text, otherwise I would show complete quotes. Those full statements do not change a thing, Henry said faith is the means, salvation the end. And you cannot be elect unless you have salvation.
To jbh28, you know election is according to foreknowledge, we have discussed this many times. God could see who would believe. Notice JFB referred to 1 Pe 1:2 in the first quote I showed.

Both of you fail to admit that some scholars agree with my interpretation. But you know they do.

What hand-held? I'm curious as I may be joining the cadre of iPhone users.

Anyway, the M. Henry quote you skipped (which it appears was to save typing) does not agree with you and in fact shows that you are not understanding Henry.

Also, Henry talks about faith as being necessary for salvation, not election.

For some reason, you are still getting things backwards. The text says that God's choosing is leading to salvation and sanctification. Henry is pointing out that faith is required for salvation--something I and most other Calvinists believe.

But, the text is clearly showing that election precedes salvation, salvation does not precede election.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Who said that you have to have salvation to be elect? Aren't you turning someone's words around backwards?

Is this a joke? To be one of the elect you eventually must have salvation, and you cannot have salvation unless you first believe.

Or do you believe someone God has chosen or elected to salvation can be lost?

You see, your doctrine paints you into a corner.

 

[Iconoclast]

First, to answer Archangel, I am using a hand held device tonight, I can only type so much text, otherwise I would show complete quotes. Those full statements do not change a thing, Henry said faith is the means, salvation the end. And you cannot be elect unless you have salvation.
To jbh28, you know election is according to foreknowledge, we have discussed this many times. God could see who would believe. Notice JFB referred to 1 Pe 1:2 in the first quote I showed.

Both of you fail to admit that some scholars agree with my interpretation. But you know they do.

Winman,
If you must mis-quote Matthew Henry.....a solid calvinist.... to try to get him to say what he never did, do you think maybe you need to re-examine your theological stance? Most of us have matthew Henry in our library and we know he believes exactly as we do on the doctrines of grace.
When you take quotes out of context ,you dis-credit yourself.

 

[jbh28]

To jbh28, you know election is according to foreknowledge, we have discussed this many times. God could see who would believe. Notice JFB referred to 1 Pe 1:2 in the first quote I showed.

Matthew Henry believed in unconditional election, so no, he didn't agree with you. No where did Henry say that we were chosen because of our faith. Every place that sanctification and faith are mentioned, Henry applies them to salvation.

Both of you fail to admit that some scholars agree with my interpretation. But you know they do.

I'm sure some do. Matthew Henry isn't one of them.

 

[jbh28]

{deleted childish remark} To be one of the elect you eventually must have salvation,

If you are one of the elect, you will have salvation.

and you cannot have salvation unless you first believe.

Salvation though faith

Or do you believe someone God has chosen or elected to salvation can be lost?

Of course not. God not only has chosen us to salvation, but has also ordained the means to salvation by sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth.

 

[Winman]

Matthew Henry believed in unconditional election, so no, he didn't agree with you. No where did Henry say that we were chosen because of our faith. Every place that sanctification and faith are mentioned, Henry applies them to salvation.

I'm sure some do. Matthew Henry isn't one of them.

You know better, you just read his words for yourself.

As usual, when your arguments are refuted you resort to games. To be one of the elect you must eventually have salvation, and to have salvation you must first believe.

You have painted yourself into a corner whether you will admit it or not.

 

[Iconoclast]

If you are one of the elect, you will have salvation.Salvation though faith

Of course not. God not only has chosen us to salvation, but has also ordained the means to salvation by sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Exactly.....this is what the op said, God has ordained the means as well.
This quote by Pink is so direct and clear it is almost impossible to miss it...unless it is posted on the BB:laugh:

 

[jbh28]

You know better, you just read his words for yourself.

As usual, when your arguments are refuted you resort to games. To be one of the elect you must eventually have salvation, and to have salvation you must first believe.

I also showed you exactly what he said and he never said we were chosen because we believed.
MH: "The MEANS IN ORDER TBTAINING THIS END- sanctification and belief of the truth." Means to obtain what? Salvation

Not only didn't Henry not say what you said he said, he also said the opposite.

MH: "We are not the elected of God because we were holy, but that we might be holy."

Did you read that, or did you ignore it to suit your purpose?

You have painted yourself into a corner whether you will admit it or not.

you still upset when I did that to you a couple weeks ago?

 

[J.D.]

Is this a joke? To be one of the elect you eventually must have salvation, and you cannot have salvation unless you first believe.

Or do you believe someone God has chosen or elected to salvation can be lost?

You see, your doctrine paints you into a corner.

The elect will eventually be saved (not must, but will; not "have" salvation, but will be saved). The way you said before it sounded like you were saying that one must be saved first, then elected.

 

[Winman]

What hand-held? I'm curious as I may be joining the cadre of iPhone users.

Anyway, the M. Henry quote you skipped (which it appears was to save typing) does not agree with you and in fact shows that you are not understanding Henry.

Also, Henry talks about faith as being necessary for salvation, not election.

For some reason, you are still getting things backwards. The text says that God's choosing is leading to salvation and sanctification. Henry is pointing out that faith is required for salvation--something I and most other Calvinists believe.

But, the text is clearly showing that election precedes salvation, salvation does not precede election.

The Archangel

Samsung Flight with AT&T net. It's small, but I'm used to it.

I fully realize that election is before the foundation of the world, but election is according to foreknowledge as you know.

In fact, the only other verse in the scriptures that says "through sanctification of the Spirit" is 1 Pe 1:2. Now isn't that an amazing coincidence?

You can't be one of the elect unless you eventually have salvation, and you can't have salvation until you first believe.

Show me where the scriptures ever calls an unsaved person elect.

 

[Iconoclast]

Show me where the scriptures ever calls an unsaved person elect.

All of the elect...were conceived ,dead in trespasses and sins. At that point they were ......not yet saved,ie unsaved.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So ...all elect persons go from being born as an unsaved person in the first Adam.....to being born from above In the Last Adam.....showing their election.

 

[Allan]

Allan,

It is SOOoooo good to "see" you again. I hope all is going well with you and your church.

So, the big question: Why did God choose? The only answer I can offer is this: For his own good pleasure.

Specifically, as to your question, why did he choose me? Perhaps it displays His glory more to choose to save a worthless, impulsive, sinful, lustful, faithless, rebel like me and change me into a son of the King.

Of all the questions I want an answer to when I get to heaven--like why is the platypus a mammal, why do you put up with humanity, why do you ordain that evil be, why Hitler--I want to know "Why me?"

The Archangel

LOL.. Good to 'see' you too.

You know I'm just messing with ya..
Though the question is an honest one (why choose one over another) it was more for fun

 

[The Archangel]

Samsung Flight with AT&T net. It's small, but I'm used to it.

I fully realize that election is before the foundation of the world, but election is according to foreknowledge as you know.

You continue to misunderstand foreknowledge.

In fact, the only other verse in the scriptures that says "through sanctification of the Spirit" is 1 Pe 1:2. Now isn't that an amazing coincidence?

What you've posted here "through sanctification of the Spirit" is a sentence fragment.

The clauses in v. 2 (of which there are more than one) refer back to "elect exiles." So, the elect exiles are elect (1.) according to the foreknowledge of God (which means God's choosing) (2.) in the sanctification of the spirit. So the elect are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" and "elect in the sanctification of the spirit." The phrase you posted relates to the clause that follows: For obedience to Jesus Christ. So the sanctification of the spirit is not for election, it is for obedience to Christ.

You can't be one of the elect unless you eventually have salvation, and you can't have salvation until you first believe.

Show me where the scriptures ever calls an unsaved person elect.

The scripture doesn't call an unsaved person "elect." We have never argued that it does. The fact of the matter is that we do not know who the elect are until they produce the fruits of repentance and faith.

As we have argued ad nauseum--Salvation comes to an elect person after they believe. But, you can't have salvation unless you are first elected. So election--which is all of God and His sovereign choice--is the initiating factor. A result of that factor is belief and then salvation.

From your past posting, you seem to want to use your own definition of terms and apply them to us. That doesn't work. We say that God's election and our salvation are not the same event. We say that regeneration and salvation are not the same thing. So, at least, I hope you will understand that you are not representing us or our terms correctly and take the proper steps to understand what we are actually saying.

The Archangel

 

[Ron Wood]

Honest questions:

How could Paul know that these believers at Thessanolica were "elect"? Could he (Paul) see into the hearts of the believers, or know the mind of God prior to creation? Yet he was confident that they were indeed elect? How?

Since no one has answered your questions perhaps I can. Lets look at the passage. I will underline the answers for you and point them out.

(1Th 1:4) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.Here Paul makes a very bold and clear statement. Then he gives the reasons why he makes it.

(1Th 1:5) For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

(1Th 1:6) And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:(1Th 1:7) So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

(1Th 1:8) For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

(1Th 1:9) For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;(1Th 1:10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


You see, Paul gives us the very reasons why we can believe someone is elect.

 

[Allan]

Since no one has answered your questions perhaps I can. Lets look at the passage. I will underline the answers for you and point them out.

(1Th 1:4) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.Here Paul makes a very bold and clear statement. Then he gives the reasons why he makes it.

(1Th 1:5) For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

(1Th 1:6) And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:(1Th 1:7) So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

(1Th 1:8) For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

(1Th 1:9) For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;(1Th 1:10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


You see, Paul gives us the very reasons why we can believe someone is elect.

I will agree here. He was not stating that every person in the church was elect but that the church had established itself, as a body, to be of the elect.
Thus He spoke with confidence about their election, it was with regard as to the body and not as to the individuals

 

[Robert Snow]

God's decrees (notice I didn't say "choices") ARE arbitrary IF the definition of arbitrary is: a : not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by absolute authority <an arbitrary government> .

God's decrees ARE NOT arbitrary IF the definition of arbitrary is: b : existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will <when a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary — Nehemiah Jordan> (definitions from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary)

I would love to see a scripture that says that all of God's choices are "arbitrary."