Plain, Simple, Un-adulterated Easy to Understand Truth

[donnA]

Helen: No, Donna. That verse does not mean that no matter how you stretch it

I agree, thats why I disagreed with gordon, which is what you quoted from me, disagreeing with his interpetation, taking his interpetation to it's logical end, which it seems he has not thought out.

You quoted the section about Jesus coming to HIS OWN, but His own receiving Him not. If Calvinism were true, then those who were His would of course have received Him! They would have had no choice in the matter.

His own would be the jews, because Jesus was a jew. He came to His own (the jews) when He was born, when He started preaching.

 

[Blammo]

Oh, but it was predestined.........

Fatalist!!! :tongue3:

 

[donnA]

And, when your adopted child chooses to throw it's food all over the floor, you did not choose for it to do so, it chose to do so all by itself.
And, when your pet chooses to take a dump on your carpet, you did not choose for it to do so, it chose to do so all by itself.

Thats right, you choose your baby for adoption, your choose your pet, and you did not disown them when they did wrong, your thoughts support eternal salvation(can not loose salvation), not free will.
Becasue you see, throwing food, or pooping on the carpet have nothing to do with them choosing not to be yours (child and pet), their disagreeable actions are after the fact.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Fatalist!!! :tongue3:

What can I say brother? I died to myself and started trusting Jesus! That is fatalism isn't it?:applause:

 

[Blammo]

Thats right, you choose your baby for adoption, your choose your pet, and you did not disown them when they did wrong, your thoughts support eternal salvation(can not loose salvation), not free will.
Becasue you see, throwing food, or pooping on the carpet have nothing to do with them choosing not to be yours (child and pet), their disagreeable actions are after the fact.

Fair enough, donnA. I totally agree.

I have recently had a strong dose of "God makes us do everything we do, yes, even the bad things". It was not an argument for freewill, it was an argument against God being the author of sin, and people being puppets. Sorry, wrong thread.

 

[Blammo]

What can I say brother? I died to myself and started trusting Jesus! That is fatalism isn't it?:applause:

Amen!!! Ain't it great to be saved?

I am so glad that Jesus loves me, Jesus loves me, Jesus loves me!!!

 

[Jarthur001]

OK that is a good start. Now we are looking at Scripture.

On the one side we are told that every man born into the world has this Light.

On the other hand we are told the Jews did not receive Him (a corporate statement not intended to mean absolutely every person in the family of Hebrew linage - some did receive Him and believe)

Here are verses 4 and 5

4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

We have a clear statement that says Jesus is the life and this life is the light of men.

We have in context further understanding concerning the light with respect to mankind,

9. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

OK, now we know it means that Jesus the light and life enlightens every man.

Now, we have verse 5. Jesus comes into the world and the world is described as darkness. The system of the world is as we know controlled by Satan and his world system is darkness and mankind lives in this environment. The darkens of this system or world correctly does not comprehend light or life or Jesus.

I agree 100 percent with that statement. However, I don't press it to define that the light is not the light of men. Why? Because the Bible is God's word and God tells us that Jesus the life and light "enlightens every man." This statement does not negate verse 5. Verse 5 is understood as addressing the system or world system ruled by Satan by permission of course. God is in control.

The world is in darkness - agree - darkness does not comprehend the light - agree - the light is Christ - agree.


Lets look further:

10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

The world here in my understanding speaks to all aspects of this world, that includes people who are influenced and even controlled by the system of Satan.

11. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

His own are of course the Hebrew families knows as the Jews. It is a corporate statement. There were many Jews that believed so we do not press it as absolute in a wooden literal sense. It is normal literal. You have herd your kids say, Everyone is doing it. Perhaps that will clear the point. This is that kind of statement. It is a true statement understood according to proper genre.

12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name,

The reason we can assert as we have is this statement further gives us clarification that "his own did not receive him" is not absolutely exclusive and binding on all Hebrew persons." Some did believe out of the corporate body of Jews. The darkness is real and the light that is given to all men is real and while the darkness is there the light is there and given to all men and as a result "many received Him, the life, the light and what happened - they became children of God - those who believed the Jesus, the life, the light.

It is so simple it is scary. We must not read into the text what is not there. It is so simple and real and truthful. I just can see it any other way than what it actually says.

Well it is your turn.

I am liking this post: Why? We are staying away for them and doing our own thinking. Lets keep it so. We both are capable of doing our own thinking.

Let it fly.

I would like to start in verse 1, for there is a key point there. But I will address that later.

For now, lets take it slow...please stay with me.

Your 1st set of verses..

4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

In verse 4 we have the word life, (zwh). Do you feel there is a logical link to "logos" in verse one in that it is speaking 1st of creation? I also know that it has mean other meanings, but we will get to that later. Now this may mean nothing to you yet, but stay with me please.

would you agree with this statement from strongs as to the meaning?...

of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and
ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the
hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on
human nature

Next..in verse 5 we have katelaben (comprehend) in the KJV. What do you think this may mean?

Do you think it holds the same idea and meaning found in chapter 3 verse 19?

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Would you agree with Strongs...

2638 katalambano {kat-al-am-ban'-o}
from 2596 and 2983; TDNT - 4:9,495; v
AV - take 3, apprehend 3, comprehend 2, come upon 1, attain 1,
find 1, overtake 1, obtain 1; 15
1) to lay hold of
1a) to lay hold of so as to make one's own, to obtain, attain to,
to make one's own, to take into one's self, appropriate
1b) to seize upon, take possession of
1b1) of evils overtaking one, of the last day overtaking the
wicked with destruction, of a demon about to torment one
1b2) in a good sense, of Christ by his holy power and influence
laying hold of the human mind and will, in order to prompt
and govern it
1c) to detect, catch
1d) to lay hold of with the mind
1d1) to understand, perceive, learn, comprehend



Now to your verse.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

This word "lighteth"....what does it mean in context?

5461 photizo {fo-tid'-zo}
from 5457; TDNT - 9:310,1293; v
AV - give light 2, bring to light 2, lighten 2, enlighten 2, light 1,
illuminate 1, make to see 1; 11
1) to give light, to shine
2) to enlighten, light up, illumine
3) to bring to light, render evident
3a) to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become
clear to all
4) to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
4a) to instruct, to inform, teach
4b) to give understanding to

I'll be back later to see how you are doing.

 

[amity]

Its the order that freewillers place foreknowing, that turns them in HCs.

They think God looks down in time..and sees what happens...and then is locked into making man in the way man does. With this view pray is not any good. With this view God is controled based on what He sees man do.

The church I attend is sometimes typed as 'hyper-Calvinist' (which always leaves me wondering "whatever do they mean?"), and we certainly don't believe that way.

 

[Jarthur001]

The church I attend is sometimes typed as 'hyper-Calvinist' (which always leaves me wondering "whatever do they mean?"), and we certainly don't believe that way.

I used this line the other day..

Christianity Today, Baptism in Britain, Vol. 24, No. 7, April 4, 1980:

“Hyper-Calvinism is a fluid term; as one pastor notes wryly, “Everyone who is more Reformed that I am is hyper-Calvinistic.”

Hyper-Calvinism use to mean that you did not believe in missions. I have been called an HC myself. I used the lable here on freewillers, for they seem to think all Calvinst are hyper. They think their idea of foreknowing changes things, yet it does not.

BTW...nice to meet you.


In Christ...James

 

[amity]

I will consider the term as placing me in some pretty good company, then. Nice to meet you, too, James.

 

[Blammo]

Super-TULIP-Calvinistic-extra-Synod of Dort-ness

 

[amity]

Super-TULIP-Calvinistic-extra-Synod of Dort-ness

I gotta look up that Synod of Dort deal one day...

 

[J.D.]

Super-TULIP-Calvinistic-extra-Synod of Dort-ness

Blammo just the sound of that is something quite atrocious!

Okay yall, let's keep it going! Someone else can do the next line.

 

[webdog]

Its the order that freewillers place foreknowing, that turns them in HCs.

They think God looks down in time..and sees what happens...and then is locked into making man in the way man does. With this view pray is not any good. With this view God is controled based on what He sees man do.

You would think you would know what us non cal's believe by now

Please represent what we believe accurately. You've been told enough.

 

[donnA]

Fair enough, donnA. I totally agree.

I have recently had a strong dose of "God makes us do everything we do, yes, even the bad things". It was not an argument for freewill, it was an argument against God being the author of sin, and people being puppets. Sorry, wrong thread.

thats fine
i agree, God is not the author of sin

 

[GordonSlocum]

Ok mr greek...you are on.

OK - Your Turn

 

[GordonSlocum]

What can I say brother? I died to myself and started trusting Jesus! That is fatalism isn't it?:applause:

Are you capable of defending your view from the Scripture and backing it up with accepted definition of words. Support your [personal attack deleted] with "fact talk"

List a Scripture and explain why you see it as you do.

When you Calvinist pop off at the mouth as you are it is good because it shows your outlandish extreme in which the lot of you go to dance around truth and facts.

 

[Jarthur001]

OK - Your Turn

My reply was this......and you have nothing to say????

I would like to start in verse 1, for there is a key point there. But I will address that later.

For now, lets take it slow...please stay with me.

Your 1st set of verses..

4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

In verse 4 we have the word life, (zwh). Do you feel there is a logical link to "logos" in verse one in that it is speaking 1st of creation? I also know that it has mean other meanings, but we will get to that later. Now this may mean nothing to you yet, but stay with me please.

would you agree with this statement from strongs as to the meaning?...

of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and
ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the
hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on
human nature

Next..in verse 5 we have katelaben (comprehend) in the KJV. What do you think this may mean?

Do you think it holds the same idea and meaning found in chapter 3 verse 19?

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Would you agree with Strongs...

2638 katalambano {kat-al-am-ban'-o}
from 2596 and 2983; TDNT - 4:9,495; v
AV - take 3, apprehend 3, comprehend 2, come upon 1, attain 1,
find 1, overtake 1, obtain 1; 15
1) to lay hold of
1a) to lay hold of so as to make one's own, to obtain, attain to,
to make one's own, to take into one's self, appropriate
1b) to seize upon, take possession of
1b1) of evils overtaking one, of the last day overtaking the
wicked with destruction, of a demon about to torment one
1b2) in a good sense, of Christ by his holy power and influence
laying hold of the human mind and will, in order to prompt
and govern it
1c) to detect, catch
1d) to lay hold of with the mind
1d1) to understand, perceive, learn, comprehend



Now to your verse.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

This word "lighteth"....what does it mean in context?

5461 photizo {fo-tid'-zo}
from 5457; TDNT - 9:310,1293; v
AV - give light 2, bring to light 2, lighten 2, enlighten 2, light 1,
illuminate 1, make to see 1; 11
1) to give light, to shine
2) to enlighten, light up, illumine
3) to bring to light, render evident
3a) to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become
clear to all
4) to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
4a) to instruct, to inform, teach
4b) to give understanding to

I'll be back later to see how you are doing.

Could it be that we have yet another blank clipboard? Come now, you must do better then this my friend. We have yet to get into the good part.

 

[pinoybaptist]

This thread has gone to these much pages, and Gordon Slocum has not answered my logical question to his statement about the Calvinists on this board being judged according to the Scriptures he posted.

So, I will now quote the specific verse he points to with his statement about Calvinists being judged by God:

..............................9. That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world.

At or upon the last day when all Calvinist are passed from this life you will face God and this verse will be there as your judge.

And I am again asking the question which he does not seem able to answer:

And then what ?
The Calvinist will be sent to hell ?

Or has God appointed you, Gordon Slocum, to act in His behalf and judge all Calvinists by arguing for God about this verse ?

Please answer both questions.

 

[GordonSlocum]

My reply was this......and you have nothing to say????


Could it be that we have yet another blank clipboard? Come now, you must do better then this my friend. We have yet to get into the good part.

I got started on it and was called out on jobs. That happens here and there. Will address your post as soon as possible. We have, I believe, a good discussion at this point. I doubt we will change anyone to our way but at least in dealing with the text as we have started we will be better equipped to deal with our differences.

I would hope that several others would approach it the same way. Will be back to post on the specific questions you ask.