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Plain, Simple, Un-adulterated Easy to Understand Truth
- Thread starter GordonSlocum
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Against my resolve not to involve myself in this tired debate over soteriology, I am nonetheless going to jump in to point out that the doctrine of election/predestination also encompasses all the very same Bible verses that Arminians use to support freewill-ism. It is not an either/or proposition, it is both. All a person 'needs in order to be saved' is to have faith in Jesus Christ, true. Also true, as the Bible says, that our "decisions" are made in the context of God's will for us.
There are two levels of teaching here: The milk and the meat. The level of understanding of a new believer, and the level of understanding of someone who has studied longer in God's word. The beginner level and the advanced. The simple and the more complex.
Here is the simple version: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9
Here is the advanced level: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of
the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." Ephesians 1:4
Both are Bible, and both equally true. God put 'em both in there for a reason. Both have a role to play in the perfection of the saints.
There are two levels of teaching here: The milk and the meat. The level of understanding of a new believer, and the level of understanding of someone who has studied longer in God's word. The beginner level and the advanced. The simple and the more complex.
Here is the simple version: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9
Here is the advanced level: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of
the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." Ephesians 1:4
Both are Bible, and both equally true. God put 'em both in there for a reason. Both have a role to play in the perfection of the saints.
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Amy.G said:
Well, it's not really a silly question, AmyG. Think about it. The One who did the ordaining is the One who created the Universe simply by speaking.
Therefore, it is impossible for God to ordain his crowning creation, man, to eternal life, and then the ordained miss that eternal life because of lack of faith in his part, because he did not get ordained into eternal life based on anything he does, says, or thinks, but because God wanted to ordain Him to eternal life.
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MB said:
I find it odd that no major translation agrees with Green, the ASB, NASB, ESV, NKJ, HCSB, RSV, NRSV, even the Douay-Rheims translated it as ordained then believed.
The Sovereignty of God by AW Pink says this: "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). Every artifice of human ingenuity has been employed to blunt the sharp edge of this Scripture and to explain away the obvious meaning of these words, but it has been employed in vain, though nothing will ever be able to reconcile this and similar passages to the mind of the natural man. "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed." Here we learn four things: First, that believing is the consequence and not the cause of God's decree. Second, that a limited number only are "ordained to eternal life," for if all men without exception were thus ordained by God, then the words "as many as" are a meaningless qualification. Third, that this "ordination" of God is not to mere external privileges but to "eternal life," not to service but to salvation itself. Fourth, that all-"as many as," not one less-who are thus ordained by God to eternal life will most certainly believe."
I fell for it. I'm new to this forum and I fell for the Troll Postings of Gordon Slocum. It's not like I haven't seen his rants on other forums...I should've known better.
:tonofbricks:
[these bricks are for me]
Amy.G said:
No, in the Greek, the tense of "ordained" shows that it precedes belief. I don't have Green, but I suspect that Green may used the verb "were ordained" to indicate that they "were ordained" prior to belief.
It makes perfect sense to be ordained to eternal life before belief. That is, in fact, the only consistent biblical explanation for belief.
Well, for once I agree. Proof would be that you were ordained before you were even "called."Pastor Larry said:
The "sticky wicket" is that you weren't ordained/predestined to eternal life before you were "foreknown." Now if only you could prove that you were predestined before you were foreknown, you'd about have a "lock on Bear Creek," as they say! :laugh:
skypair
Hi JM;
I didn't give Greens translation but according to the Greek text it self. Since both "believed" and "ordained" can be verbs there really was no reason to rearrange there original positions. Especially when believing is the action talked about. I believe you are wrong about Greens interlinear by the way since their translation is just as the rest of the Bibles are with ordained coming first.
MB
~JM~ said:
I didn't give Greens translation but according to the Greek text it self. Since both "believed" and "ordained" can be verbs there really was no reason to rearrange there original positions. Especially when believing is the action talked about. I believe you are wrong about Greens interlinear by the way since their translation is just as the rest of the Bibles are with ordained coming first.
MB
Yes, they are both verbs, but in the Greek, the verb tenses tell you when the actions occured in relation to each other, timewise; so all the English translations rearranged the wording because in English that rearranging is needed to show which action takes place first. It's all a matter of translating accurately, so that what's clear in the Greek simply by way of the tenses is also clear in the English, where we don't have so many tenses, and where word order counts when expressing timing of actions.MB said:
and what do you think this means?
If yur going to start a topic with scripture, you really need to talk about that scripture, explain your purpose in useing that particular scripture.
Whe you really trust in God, and not self, you know theres nothing to worry about. it's in His hands completely.
only if God is not in control.
1. then explain why all are not saved
2. then ot's our will not God's, He bends to our will
3. agree
4. again, our will over God's
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GordonSlocum
New Member
donnA said:
9. That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world. When I read this verse I simple accept what it says. It means what is says. What does it mean it means that every person born will receive the light spoken of in this verse. Some how some way Christ is able to give his light to all who are born into the world. Man is without excuse in his relationship to God. Why? Because according to this verse, which is easy to understand, all who are born into this world Christ gives His light to.
Do you agree with what it says or disagree. I agree with what it says.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
GordonSlocum said:
Hi GordonS,
I would like to know if in your Bible there are any verses after this one verse. If so, what do they say.
Thanks
GordonSlocum
New Member
Jarthur001 said:
Answer me this: Is there any verse following this verse that would alter the meaning of the clear statement the verse makes?
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9. That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name:
13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Which verse are you having problems with?
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