Plain, Simple, Un-adulterated Easy to Understand Truth

[amity]

It means what is says. What does it mean it means that every person born will receive the light spoken of in this verse. Some how some way Christ is able to give his light to all who are born into the world. Man is without excuse in his relationship to God. Why? Because according to this verse, which is easy to understand, all who are born into this world Christ gives His light to.

Gordon, I gotta disagree here. I don't think this verse is so very easy to understand as you make it out to be. For example take your obvious misconception.. it does not say "Christ is able to give his light to all who are born into the world." What it says is "That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world" Does it mean Christ is revealed to everyone? Does it mean all are saved?


..evidently not...

 

[webdog]

What it says is "That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world" Does it mean Christ is revealed to everyone?

yes

Does it mean all are saved?

no, and enlightening every man is not the same thing as saving every man (universalism).

 

[amity]

yes

no, and enlightening every man is not the same thing as saving every man (universalism).

Then, like every other verse of the Bible, it needs to be understood in context, in light of other verses. No single verse of the Bible is understandable at all in isolation.

Therefore the whole premise of this thread is a bit off. "Plain, Simple, Un-adulterated Easy to Understand Truth" it is not.

ShALL we take into consideration those verses that say things like Romans 9:

18Therefore hath he
mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
John 12:35Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with
you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that
walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36While ye have light,
believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things
spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 37But though he
had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That
the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord,
who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been
revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said
again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they
should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be
converted, and I should heal them.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Gordon, I gotta disagree here. I don't think this verse is so very easy to understand as you make it out to be. For example take your obvious misconception.. it does not say "Christ is able to give his light to all who are born into the world." What it says is "That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world" Does it mean Christ is revealed to everyone? Does it mean all are saved?


..evidently not...

.It does not mean universal salvation. It means only what it says. Christ is the light and this light some how some way is given to all men that come into the world.


Universal salvation is not taught in my Bible and Calvinistic Election is not taught in my Bible either.

The fact that Christ who is the light is given to all men who come into the world does not mean that man does not have a sin nature.

I don't read out of it or into it. I simply accept the statement to mean what it says.

The verse clearly teaches that any notion on the part of Calvinist to limit the scope of the light or Christ is un-Biblical based upon this clear statement.

 

[amity]

The real question is, does GOD limit the scope in some other passage of scripture?

I don't mean to be offensive, but the scripture you quoted just does NOT happen to be one of the passages that Calvinists base their belief in election on! If that was all there was to it, then no, of course no one would believe in particular redemption.

I think this is an example of attempting to use scripture as a weapon just to prove one is right. It is not a legitimate thing to do.

 

[AAA]

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9. That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world.
At or upon the last day when all Calvinist are passed from this life you will face God and this verse will be there as your judge.

God is soveriegn enough to save even the non calvinist, event though
hyper calvinism will say other wise...

We are saved by GOD's grace, not if we are calvinist or not!

:godisgood:

 

[GordonSlocum]

NKJV Act 13: 48. Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


Transliterated from Greek to English letters word for word


48. (Akou'onta hearing) (de - but ) ( ' ta’ - the ) (e'thnee - nations ) (e'chairon - rejoiced) (kai' - and ) (edo'xazon - glorified ) ( to'n - the ) (lo'gon - word) ( tou' - of the ) ( Kuri'ou - of Lord ) (kai' - and ) (epi'steusan - believed ) (ho'soi - as many as ) (ee'san - were ) (tetagme'noi - having been disposed ) (eis - to ) (zooee'n - life) (aioo'nion, - eternal )

Akou'onta - Verb, participle, present, active, nominative, neuter, plural (agrees with the plurality of the word nations)

de' - conjunction

ta’ - Determiner or definite article, nominative, neuter

e'thnee - noun - nominative, neuter, plural

e'chairon - verb, indicative, imperfect, active, third person plural (they rejoiced)

kai' - conjunction

edo'xazon - verb, indicative, imperfect, active, third person plural (they glorified)

to'n - determiner or definite article, accusative, masculine, singular

lo'gon - noun, accusative , masculine, singular

tou' - determiner or definite article “of the”

Kuri'ou - noun, genitive, masculine, singular “of Lord”

kai' - conjunction “and”

epi'steusan - verb, indicative, aorist, active, third person plural (agrees with the words rejoice and glorified in person and number as it should)

ho'soi - “as many as” could be one of three possibilities (1) adjective, pronominal, relative, nominative, masculine; Or (2) adjective, pronominal, demonstrative, nominative, masculine; or (3) preposition / adjective (actually both at the same time) pronominal, relative, nominative, masculine, plural.

Note: all the “stuff” really does not change the meaning of “as many as” for us OK so don’t get concerned of the three possibilities, it does not change anything for us or against us. No one can use this as any form of proof in any direction at all. “as many as” means “as many as” that is it folks.

ee'san - verb indicative, imperfect, active, third person, plural ( were )

tetagme'noi - Verb, participle, perfect, passive, nominative, masculine, plural (having been disposed or
appointed. )

Eis - to - preposition, used with the accusative case,

zooee'n - noun, accusative, feminine, singular (life)

aioo'nion, - adjective, accusative, feminine, singular


OK here is the bottom line - pay close attention OK

And hearing (who) the nations - they rejoiced and they glorified the word of the Lord.

(1) and believed as many as or

(2) and as many as believed or

Please not this ( both way are accurate and both ways does not change anything. But what comes next. OK here it is.

Were having been appointed or disposed to life eternal.

The word were is cast in the case of reality and is active which means the ones believing were active or they actually believed. The believing ones are the ones actually believing. I know that sounds crazy but it is as it is.

Now the ones believing are the ones doing the believing not some outside force on them or in them other than them themselves.

But, the “having been appointed is “passive” so the “were” points to the believers who are active in believing to the passive disposition of the appointment. While the believers actively believed they in and of themselves in spite of believing can not dispose themselves to eternal life so they become passive in the actual disposition that is predicated upon their active role in believing.

They actively believe and are passively disposed. That is what it says with respect to these two words.

A classical example of man’s part and God’s part.

The word “believed” is aroist tense. It stresses kind of action over time of action but can be action leading to a conclusion or a starting of action that continues or it can be pictured as action with no lingering results after in one respect or any action leading up to an end.

Here I would suggest it is an action that starts at a given point in time and continues one represented by this symbol *----------------------------


When a believer - believes that is the point in time and the effects continue on forever. It is also in the mood of reality, indicative mood.

Lets cut the chase. The verse means what it says. Everyone that believes in the past, present or future believed at a point in time and it continues on forever. However, in eternity past the believers were appointed to heaven.

So the verse simple means what it says in the English text. Now, for me the appointment that precedes the actual historical act of believing is all on the basis of “foreknowledge” but for the Calvinist, who are wrong, God picked first and then make them believe second. Foreknowledge for them is real but in the case of salvation has no relationship to salvation at all. God to them picked the ones to save and makes them get saved in time and space. So this verse left to itself and if we were to rip out all the other verses that address salvation then Calvinism is correct but we know that it is not correct because God sees man believe and on that basis, His Absolute Knowledge which we call foreknowledge, God appoints to heaven.

All who want to be correct will agree with me. No brag just fact.

There you have it - your turn.

 

[GordonSlocum]

God is soveriegn enough to save even the non calvinist, event though
hyper calvinism will say other wise...

We are saved by GOD's grace, not if we are calvinist or not!

:godisgood:

That sounds halfway decent to me. Grace, Grace, marvelous Grace, Here is the song you can listen to it.

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/g/g/ggreater.htm

Sends Holy goose bumps up and down my spine. Glory be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Marvelous grace of our loving Lord,
Grace that exceeds our sin and our guilt!
Yonder on Calvary’s mount outpoured,
There where the blood of the Lamb was spilled.

Refrain

Grace, grace, God’s grace,
Grace that will pardon and cleanse within;
Grace, grace, God’s grace,
Grace that is greater than all our sin.

Sin and despair, like the sea waves cold,
Threaten the soul with infinite loss;
Grace that is greater, yes, grace untold,
Points to the refuge, the mighty cross.

Refrain

Dark is the stain that we cannot hide.
What can we do to wash it away?
Look! There is flowing a crimson tide,
Brighter than snow you may be today.

Refrain

Marvelous, infinite, matchless grace,
Freely bestowed on all who believe!
You that are longing to see His face,
Will you this moment His grace receive?

Refrain

 

[amity]

All who want to be correct will agree with me. No brag just fact.

There you have it - your turn.

Sometimes I think part of the reason I believe as I do is the fruit I see people bear.

Perhaps one word you might want to investigate is "foreknowledge." It does not seem to refer simply to omniscience, seeing into the future and knowing who would believe, but to an intimacy God has with His elect. What basis God uses to choose some and not others we do not know. But if Christ died for everyone's sins then everyone would be saved.


From whence this fear and unbelief?
Did not the Father put to grief
His spotless Son for me?
And will the righteous Judge of men,
Condemn me for that debt of sin,
Which Lord was charg'd on Thee?

Complete atonement Thou hast made,
And to the utmost farthing paid,
Whate'er Thy people ow'd:
Nor can His wrath on me take place,
If shelter'd in Thy righteousness,
And ransomed by Thy blood.

If Thou hast my discharge procur'd,
And in the sinner's room endur'd,
The whole of wrath divine:
Payment He cannot twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety's hand,
And then again at mine.

If Thou for me hast purchas'd faith
By Thy obedience unto death,
He must the grace bestow:
Would Israel's God a price receive,
And not the purchas'd blessing give?
His justice answers, No!

Turn then, my soul, unto thy rest;
The merits of thy great High Priest,
Have bought thy liberty:
Trust to His efficacious blood,
Nor fear thy banishment from God,
Since Jesus dy'd for thee.

Augustus Montague Toplady, 1755.

 

[GordonSlocum]

OK Folks Time to worship a little: Here are some songs to listen to and refreash your heart and soul. Its been a long day and God desires our worship.

At Calvery - My favorite.

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/t/atcalvry.htm

Years I spent in vanity and pride,
Caring not my Lord was crucified,
Knowing not it was for me He died on Calvary.

Refrain

Mercy there was great, and grace was free;
Pardon there was multiplied to me;
There my burdened soul found liberty at Calvary.

By God’s Word at last my sin I learned;
Then I trembled at the law I’d spurned,
Till my guilty soul imploring turned to Calvary.

Refrain

Now I’ve given to Jesus everything,
Now I gladly own Him as my King,
Now my raptured soul can only sing of Calvary!

Refrain

Oh, the love that drew salvation’s plan!
Oh, the grace that brought it down to man!
Oh, the mighty gulf that God did span at Calvary!

Refrain

I like to listen to this Hymn for a number of reasons. First, I grew up with it, second, my dad love it and played it on his violin at church and home, and third it was on the third verse of this great him that I surrendered to Christ on September 20, 1970. God offered me His grace and I freely accepted it.


http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/u/justasam.htm

Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, though tossed about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, Thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, Thy love unknown
Hath broken every barrier down;
Now, to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, of that free love
The breadth, length, depth, and height to prove,
Here for a season, then above,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

Here is another good old hymn.

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/c/h/chrisrec.htm

Sinners Jesus will receive;
Sound this word of grace to all
Who the heavenly pathway leave,
All who linger, all who fall.

Refrain

Sing it o’er and over again;
Christ receiveth sinful men;
Make the message clear and plain:
Christ receiveth sinful men.

Come, and He will give you rest;
Trust Him, for His Word is plain;
He will take the sinfulest;
Christ receiveth sinful men.

Refrain

Now my heart condemns me not,
Pure before the law I stand;
He who cleansed me from all spot,
Satisfied its last demand.

Refrain

Christ receiveth sinful men,
Even me with all my sin;
Purged from every spot and stain,
Heaven with Him I enter in.

Refrain



NEAR TO THE HEART OF GOD

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/n/e/neartoth.htm

There is a place of quiet rest,
Near to the heart of God.
A place where sin cannot molest,
Near to the heart of God.

Refrain

O Jesus, blest Redeemer,
Sent from the heart of God,
Hold us who wait before Thee
Near to the heart of God.

There is a place of comfort sweet,
Near to the heart of God.
A place where we our Savior meet,
Near to the heart of God.

Refrain

There is a place of full release,
Near to the heart of God.
A place where all is joy and peace,
Near to the heart of God.

Refrain

OK just one more

NEVER ALONE

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/n/e/neveralo.htm
I’ve seen the lightning flashing, I’ve heard the thunder roll.
I’ve felt sin’s breakers dashing, which almost conquered my soul.
I’ve heard the voice of my Savior, bidding me still to fight on.
He promised never to leave me, never to leave me alone!

Refrain

No, never alone, no never alone,
He promised never to leave me,
He’ll claim me for His own;
No, never alone, no never alone.
He promised never to leave me,
Never to leave me alone.

The world’s fierce winds are blowing, temptation sharp and keen.
I have a peace in knowing my Savior stands between—
He stands to shield me from danger when my friends are all gone.
He promised never to leave me, never to leave me alone!

Refrain

When in affliction’s valley I tread the road of care,
My Savior helps me carry the cross so heavy to bear;
Though all around me is darkness, earthly joys all flown;
My Savior whispers His promise, never to leave me alone!

Refrain

He died on Calvary’s mountain, for me they piercèd His side.
For me He opened that fountain, the crimson, cleansing tide.
For me He waiteth in glory, seated upon His throne.
He promised never to leave me, never to leave me alone!

Refrain

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Jarthur001]

Answer me this: Is there any verse following this verse that would alter the meaning of the clear statement the verse makes?


1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9. That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name:
13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Which verse are you having problems with?

Well for starters...11 says Christ had come, and the world did not know Him.
12 says His own did not receive Him.
5 says the world in its darkness did not comprehend it the light..(Christ)

But that is not all...you must move on to the next verses as well.

What else does it say?

 

[pinoybaptist]

We disagree on that. I'm not a calvinist and don't want to be one.

That's not for you to decide but God's. Sorry.:tonofbricks:

 

[GordonSlocum]

Sometimes I think part of the reason I believe as I do is the fruit I see people bear.

Perhaps one word you might want to investigate is "foreknowledge." It does not seem to refer simply to omniscience, seeing into the future and knowing who would believe, but to an intimacy God has with His elect. What basis God uses to choose some and not others we do not know. But if Christ died for everyone's sins then everyone would be saved.


If Thou hast my discharge procur'd,
And in the sinner's room endur'd,
The whole of wrath divine:
Payment He cannot twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety's hand,
And then again at mine.

If Thou for me hast purchas'd faith
By Thy obedience unto death,
He must the grace bestow:
Would Israel's God a price receive,
And not the purchas'd blessing give?
His justice answers, No!

Augustus Montague Toplady, 1755.

I am an expert on the word.

Here is a simple complete meaning.

Foreknowledge mean to know in advance.

Now here is the longer version of it.

Foreknowledge as it is used in the Bible is always relational. It points to facts that are tied to people or relationships between God and man. Both the relationship and fact are present in the meaning. These are not the issue. The issue is that the meaning of Foreknowledge is knowledge before hand.

If we were talking about the word "to know" as the KJV used it with respect to sex then we would agree that "to know" in a context related to sex would mean intimate. However in all cases when you prefix the preposition "para" to the word "know" it can not and has never meant in any way anything related to intimacy.

It does however refer to persons and in that manner it is intimate but not as you suggest. You nor I can not separate a personal relationship away from the term "foreknowledge" any more than we can for it to not point to an event or action in the future. Foreknowledge points to the, person, place, thing and event. It is pre-sience, foresight, knowledge of all in the future. It is not limited by Calvin's forced theology which is not found in Scripture.

I am an expert in the and about the word. Calvinist are absolutely wrong in how they use the term. They have had to invent meanings to accommodate their theology. Common sense, and Scriptural sense are all against the Calvinist forced meaning they apply to this compound word.

There you have it plane and simple. Not beating around the bush.

 

[amity]

I am an expert on the word.

Gordon, you always seem to lose me in your first sentence.

Common sense, and Scriptural sense are all against the Calvinist forced meaning they apply to this compound word.

Again, I want to point out that whatever you say would be more powerful without the invective.

 

[donnA]

We disagree on that. I'm not a calvinist and don't want to be one.

It's not about you and wat you want, it's about God and His word. Jesus said all the the Father gives Him will comes to Him.

 

[donnA]

9. That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world. When I read this verse I simple accept what it says. It means what is says. What does it mean it means that every person born will receive the light spoken of in this verse. Some how some way Christ is able to give his light to all who are born into the world. Man is without excuse in his relationship to God. Why? Because according to this verse, which is easy to understand, all who are born into this world Christ gives His light to.

Do you agree with what it says or disagree. I agree with what it says.

I disagree with your interpetation. If your interpetation were true, then all people would be saved, and all people are going to heaven. No one is going to hell according to your interpetation.

 

[donnA]

10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

Wonder what happened to that light that going to save every man, and keep anyone from going to hell.

 

[donnA]

NKJV Act 13: 48. Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

gordon, plain and simple, to quote you,, this verse teaches that some are appointed to eternal life, and those people believe.

All who want to be correct will agree with me. No brag just fact.

ahhh I see, we should agree with you, not the word of God.

I am an expert on the word.

Here is a simple complete meaning.

First, your bragging and thinking more highly of yourself then you should. And old pastor of ours once said the defination of expert was,,, ex= a has been,,(pronounced) spert= a little annoying drip of water in the sink.

A simple complete meaning? Then how come you ignored that in the verses I quoted from you at the top of this post?

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Amy.G
We disagree on that. I'm not a calvinist and don't want to be one.

It's not about you and wat you want, it's about God and His word. Jesus said all the the Father gives Him will comes to Him.
__________________
donnA

You mean God is going to force me to be a calvinist? :tonofbricks:

 

[Helen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonSlocum
9. That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world. When I read this verse I simple accept what it says. It means what is says. What does it mean it means that every person born will receive the light spoken of in this verse. Some how some way Christ is able to give his light to all who are born into the world. Man is without excuse in his relationship to God. Why? Because according to this verse, which is easy to understand, all who are born into this world Christ gives His light to.

Do you agree with what it says or disagree. I agree with what it says.

Donna: I disagree with your interpetation. If your interpetation were true, then all people would be saved, and all people are going to heaven. No one is going to hell according to your interpetation.

Helen: No, Donna. That verse does not mean that no matter how you stretch it. It is the same idea as Hebrews 6. All the land gets rain. What the land does with it makes all the difference. All the people have been exposed to Christ's light. What they do with it is what makes all the difference. Exposure is not the same as salvation.

You quoted the section about Jesus coming to HIS OWN, but His own receiving Him not. If Calvinism were true, then those who were His would of course have received Him! They would have had no choice in the matter.