Planting a church without being sent out?

[John of Japan]

I think you are reaching in Acts 13. Notice the progression: 1) The church fasted and prayed. 2) In response, the Holy Spirit told the church to "set apart for ministry" (that seems to clearly be a commissioning work) 3) They sent them out. 4) So the Holy Spirit sent them out.

It seems not coincidental that v. 3 and v. 4 go together. The church sent them out, so they, sent out by the Spirit. That seems to clearly identify the church as the body used by the Spirit to send them out.

You are still not explaining the radical difference in the two Greek words for "send" in the passage.

I am not disagreeing that both the church and the Holy Spirit sent them out, I am saying that the manner of sending was quite different. The Holy Spirit remains the Lord of the harvest, not the church.

Furthemore, sponsorship of church planting does not indicate control, but guidance and support. Not even financial support necessarily, but the proverbial moral support.

Now we are on the same page. I was afraid you were headed towards the view taken by some that the sending church has institutional authority over the church planter and the church he is planting. I know Baptists who believe that way, and it is unbiblical to me.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I am not sure there is a "radical difference," especially given the parallel usage with ekpempo. The word "so" indicates a similarity in the sending. The use of apoluo does not contradict that.

To say that the Holy Spirit remains the lord of the harvest, not the church, draws a dichotomy where there is none. The church is the agency through which God is working in this era. The church is given the responsibility to evaluate men for ministry, to plant churches, to send missionaries. You do not see, in the NT, any one going out apart from a church or apostle. Since we don't have apostles, that leaves only the church.

I was afraid you were headed towards the view taken by some that the sending church has institutional authority over the church planter and the church he is planting. I know Baptists who believe that way, and it is unbiblical to me.

I am not sure what you mean by "institutional authority." Until the church is actually formed, the church planter is a member of the sending church. The core group needs to be a member of some church. The baptisms have to take place under the auspices of some church. New members have to join some church. What church is that? I think it is the sending church.

If not, then what church? I think there are a load of problems theologically and practically when you get out from under the authority of the local church. I think that is pretty much Baptist polity.

Where are you in Japan?

 

[John of Japan]

I am not sure there is a "radical difference," especially given the parallel usage with ekpempo. The word "so" indicates a similarity in the sending. The use of apoluo does not contradict that.

Look back at v. 2. The Holy Spirit commanded the elders to separate the apostles unto Him. This explains the use of apoluo in v. 3.

To say that the Holy Spirit remains the lord of the harvest, not the church, draws a dichotomy where there is none. The church is the agency through which God is working in this era. The church is given the responsibility to evaluate men for ministry, to plant churches, to send missionaries. You do not see, in the NT, any one going out apart from a church or apostle. Since we don't have apostles, that leaves only the church.

I do agree with the responsibilities you have listed for the local church. Where I differ is in the use of the term "apostle." I believe this word is the same as our modern word "missionary," and have argued for this several times on the BB. Caveat: there were 12 special apostles who will judge the 12 tribes and who have their names written in the foundation of the New Jerusalem. An apostle's/missionary's authority extends directly from the Lord of the Harvest, in my view.

I am not sure what you mean by "institutional authority." Until the church is actually formed, the church planter is a member of the sending church. The core group needs to be a member of some church. The baptisms have to take place under the auspices of some church. New members have to join some church. What church is that? I think it is the sending church.

If not, then what church? I think there are a load of problems theologically and practically when you get out from under the authority of the local church. I think that is pretty much Baptist polity.

I believe that a church being planted should be considered an autonomous church from the very first time they meet for Sunday worship, not from some extra-Biblical commissioning. Anything other view invites problems on many church-planting fields, including Japan, and does mischief to the autonomy of that new congregation. I changed to this view after some rough times planting my first church in the area of membership, when I found no Scriptural basis for the typical view that a church must grow awhile before some kind of special service to declare the assembly a church.

Where are you in Japan?

We're in the city of Asahikawa on the northernmost island of Hokkaido--preparing for some very serious snow this winter, as usual. Come visit sometime! :wavey:

 

[El_Guero]

We're in the city of Asahikawa on the northernmost island of Hokkaido--preparing for some very serious snow this winter, as usual. Come visit sometime! :wavey:

As soon as I can . . .

:wavey:

 

[John of Japan]

As soon as I can . . .

:wavey:

I'll be waiting with baited breath--so we can go fishing!:thumbsup:

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Hiscox's Directory

agrees (p. 57, Note 1) with John's statement:

I believe that a church being planted should be considered an autonomous church from the very first time they meet for Sunday worship, not from some extra-Biblical commissioning. Anything other view invites problems on many church-planting fields, including Japan, and does mischief to the autonomy of that new congregation. I changed to this view after some rough times planting my first church in the area of membership, when I found no Scriptural basis for the typical view that a church must grow awhile before some kind of special service to declare the assembly a church.

Again, I direct your attention to the chronolgy of HSBC's founding.

 

[El_Guero]

And like my illustrious colleagues . . . I too will go back to the OP . . .

Biblically, I believe that there should be an ordination process . . .

1. However, this would rule out the Anabaptists, Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Erasmus, and a host of other reformers that did not have the endorsement of a legitimate local and NT church . . . IMHO that is.

2. And even worse, that would not rule out the freak of nature smith and his cohort in crime against the Gospel. Rigdon (may he be cooking by now) was a 'baptist preacher' of a 'local congregation'.



PS - if you don't like the righteous anger - I am sorry . . . but, I did not say that you should burn just because you like the evil man.

 

[John of Japan]

agrees (p. 57, Note 1) with John's statement:Again, I direct your attention to the chronolgy of HSBC's founding.

Hey, so I'm not so far out after all! Thanks Squire.

Gotta head to the church for a translation committee.:wavey:

 

[El_Guero]

Hey, so I'm not so far out after all! Thanks Squire.

Gotta head to the church for a translation committee.:wavey:

Translate well!

 

[pasdave]

Rick Warren was sent by God and did not enlist the support of anyone. People came to him. Jesus sent His disciples out two by two.

The only "god" that Mr. Warren was sent by was "the god" of this world, i.e., Satan.

 

[pasdave]

I was pastoring a small Baptist church. I had been dealing with the desire to start a church near my home town. After much prayer I told the congregation where I was pastoring and they agreed to "extend an arm." I resigned and came back home and went to work. Since then, the church where I was has had problems finding a new pastor and has decided to close the doors and turn the building over to the association. Where, in your opinion, does that leave me?

 

[dan e.]

I was pastoring a small Baptist church. I had been dealing with the desire to start a church near my home town. After much prayer I told the congregation where I was pastoring and they agreed to "extend an arm." I resigned and came back home and went to work. Since then, the church where I was has had problems finding a new pastor and has decided to close the doors and turn the building over to the association. Where, in your opinion, does that leave me?

Whew, man, that sounds like you are not led by God, but by Satan. It is clear as day. By the way, I'm just joking. As rediculous as my comment just sounded, yours sounded even more rediculous regarding Rick Warren.

 

[tinytim]

The only "god" that Mr. Warren was sent by was "the god" of this world, i.e., Satan.

proof please.

 

[pasdave]

proof please.

Just pick up one of his books and force yourself to read it, the proof is right there.

 

[dan e.]

Are you really going to stick with the general "just read his book" without actually answering?? This leads me to believe you haven't read any of his books. Seriously....have you only HEARD of Warren without actually KNOWING anything about him?

 

[pasdave]

Are you really going to stick with the general "just read his book" without actually answering?? This leads me to believe you haven't read any of his books. Seriously....have you only HEARD of Warren without actually KNOWING anything about him?

I did choke through the "Purpose Driven Life." That was enough for me. I threw the book away and it was probably three years ago. Thus, I cannot quote anything from the book, nor would I if could. Why quote what is not worth repeating. People today need to quit idolizing men. Even if Mr. Warren did teach the truth, he is just a man. There are way too many books, study guides, and lectures out that get people to feeling good about themselves. The world today is beginning to focus on these man-made books rather than God's Word.
(2Ti 2:15) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
What are we to be studying? Some man-made book or God's Word? God's Word is all we need.

 

[dan e.]

Now the problem of some putting Warren higher up than they ought to, and declaring that Warren is led by Satan with his church-plant are two different issues. No doubt, many look to Warren, and other figures for that matter, as an idol without even recognizing or acknowledging it. No arguments there. It happens all the time, and everyone struggles with idolizing something. That is going to be a constant temptation for us all, whether it is with a person, or material object.

Reading other peoples' books to learn is not wrong. I imagine you have some favorite authors, leaders that you look up to and would strongly consider their advice. Rick Warren is a man that has experienced a lot, and Christians should rightly use his experiences and advice for the sake of other ministries. That doesn't mean you agree with all he has to say, obviously. That doesn't mean that you hold his books above the authority of Scripture, obviously. But to say he is being led by Satan? In the sense that he is constantly being tempted by Satan, sure. But in your context, that he has been following Satan along during his ministry?? Come on, grow up. What would you say to someone who told you they were converted under his ministry. Would you kindly explain that their friend/mentor/Pastor is under the influence of Satan? Discernment is important, bro'. I'd recommend asking God for sharper discernment skills.

 

[rbell]

The only "god" that Mr. Warren was sent by was "the god" of this world, i.e., Satan.

Slander is not becoming of a man of God.

 

[EdSutton]

I was pastoring a small Baptist church. I had been dealing with the desire to start a church near my home town. After much prayer I told the congregation where I was pastoring and they agreed to "extend an arm." I resigned and came back home and went to work. Since then, the church where I was has had problems finding a new pastor and has decided to close the doors and turn the building over to the association. Where, in your opinion, does that leave me?

Uh- and your point is?

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

I was pastoring a small Baptist church. I had been dealing with the desire to start a church near my home town. After much prayer I told the congregation where I was pastoring and they agreed to "extend an arm." I resigned and came back home and went to work. Since then, the church where I was has had problems finding a new pastor and has decided to close the doors and turn the building over to the association. Where, in your opinion, does that leave me?

Actually, I do know what the point is, or maybe two.

I don't want to sound judgmental, but it seems that you have assumed that you were no longer 'supported' in this . So what?
Has the leading changed, somehow? Does the lack of 'support' probably both financially and spiritually, mean that you have no place to go? Perhaps you might have to make tents, as well. There are many bi-vocational pastors around. In my own area, I know of several. I've known may over the years who were so. Today, some of them are not. One of my close friends also works as a teacher in a school, another worked for a while for NCR, in the early days of pastoring the church he started. Another extremely close personal friend of mine once worked for Brinks while in the ministry, as well as some other things. Today, he pastors a church, which he started, that numbers into the thoudsands.
My own late grandfather who BTW, had an earned doctorate, once pastored my home church, bi-vocationally, selling life insurance, at the same time as he dispensed "Eternal Life Insurance". One of the leading individuals in KY Baptist life for years never would even consider pastoring a church that was very large, but milked cows on a family farm for his entire ministry. And I believe Rick Warren, whom you do not seem particularly fond of, today does not take any salary from the church where he is the senior pastor, but supports himself by his books. That does not seem to represent hireling to me, at least. Disagree with any or all if you will. I have no problem with that. But please don't let a bit of resentment darken a bright vision.

In His grace,

Ed