Please explain KJV

[Eliyahu]

Is this question worded in an insidious manner, or simply the wrong question altogether?

We recoil as an immediate reaction to any threat to the authority of the Bible, but bringing a dictionary to bear upon the meaning of an uncertain term is not an attack upon the authority of the Word of God. The authority of God's Word is over such things as the gospel presentation, and doctrines regulating the life of the believer and congregational worship. No one has suggested that we defer to an extrabiblical resource to establish our theology. The Bible does not address itself to the meaning of the language units of which it is composed. Bible interpretation is not diminished by fair use of a proper dictionary or a scholarly lexicon.

Perhaps the question truly was: "Does a lexicon have authority over the definitions of Greek words"... and the answer is: Yes, it does. This is precisely the means by which we have received our English translation; whether indirectly applied (through translators formally trained in Greek), or directly applied (the translators referring to resource material) during the act of translating.

You don't understand the real problems with the Lexicons.
For example, most of the Greek lexicons are based on Minority texts and hundreds of Greek words cannot be found in Strong's Lexicon.
I have tried to find out any Dictionary which can explain Greek words found in the Majority Texts but not in the Minority Texts or W-H-N-A Greek NT, and asked Zondervan, but there was no answer.
Can we debate equally trusting on such Lexicon which doesn't have words for Majority Texts?

Do you believe that dictionaries cannot be biased to any human ideas?
But I believe that Bible is based on the True Words of God and is not biased on any human ideas. In such case, can we define which Bible texts is correct or not, based on the human dictionary? NOPE!!!

 

[robycop3]

Yes, Roby I agree and that seems the logical sense of the passage.

Still, I would like to know the reason the AV translators chose "easter" for "pascha" in Acts 4:12 when in every other place they used "passover".

There used to be an account that the KJV translators had originally included the word as "passover" in Acts 12:4 previous to the archetype going to press.

However the king was displeased that although mention had been made of "easter" in the Common Book of Prayer, it was not to be found in the AV New Testament as in other English versions and therefore Acts 12:4 was chosen by the translators as the most likely place to use it.

I have not had anyone able to document this.

HankD

Some translator coulda had a bad hair day.

Seriously, I believe someone just had a lapse in judgment. I don't believe any of the "HEROD WAS WORSHIPPING ISHTAR" stuff nor anything like it, as there's simply NO EVIDENCE that Ishtar was worshipped whatsoever in that time/place except perhaps under the names Hera or Juno. And this Herod was trying to PLEASE the Jews. I cannot think of anything that woulda been a bigger affront to the Jews than their 'boss' worshipping the same false goddess that had gotten'em in so much trouble with Yahweh to begin with.

 

[Deacon]

You don't understand the real problems with the Lexicons.
For example, most of the Greek lexicons are based on Minority texts and hundreds of Greek words cannot be found in Strong's Lexicon.
I have tried to find out any Dictionary which can explain Greek words found in the Majority Texts but not in the Minority Texts or W-H-N-A Greek NT, and asked Zondervan, but there was no answer.

I'm very curious (and skeptical), please give a list of 10 Greek words (and verse references) that are found in the Majority text that are not found in the "minority text" lexicons.

Rob

 

[robycop3]

Eliyahu...

While your argument is interesting & fulla info, I must disagree with it for several reasons. First, the meaning of Easter as used today was well-known to the AV men; they considered it to be, along with Christmas, one of the two holiest days of the year. They even included an 'Easter-Finder' in the AV. Thus, there coulda been no mistake on their part to have known the definition of Easter.

Next, there's no indication that Herod was observing any religious rite whatsoever at that time. And it stands to reason that if his rite wouda forbidden for him to have turned Peter over to the Jews at that time, it woulda forbidden him to have busted Peter to begin with. And I don't believe Luke woulda used the same word for Ishtar to have referred to one of the most sacred of Israeli rites. Instead, he used the same word which he'd used throughout his writings to refer to Passover, so "Passover" was clearly his intent.

Given the holiness of Easter to the Anglicans, who in 1611 clearly used its modern meaning, I don't believe they'da used it in any sense to have associated it with Ishtar in any manner. The most logical explanations are that they had a moment of nostalgia & used it in its old meaning, or that someone simply GOOFED.

 

[Eliyahu]

I'm very curious (and skeptical), please give a list of 10 Greek words (and verse references) that are found in the Majority text that are not found in the "minority text" lexicons.

Rob

Indeed, there are hundreds ( or even more) of words which are not found in Greek Lexicons but used in Majority Texts or in TR. I have not organized them but a few can be listed. I can guess or imagine what they mean but cannot determine exactly reflecting the nuance and the mood, tense etc.

Εκκακωμεν ( εγκακωμεν) - Gal 6:9
ληψεσθε ( λημψεσθε) John
παραληψομαι ( παραλημψομαι) - John 14

There are much more serious missing, but I have not organized the words yet. Of course we can guess the meaning of those, but when we talk about Bible, guessing is not the way of interpretation. In many cases their conjugations are not found. I have had such difficulty and tried to find out the right Lexicon for MT thru Zondervan or Thomas Nelson and Libraries but in vain. If you find anyone for MT, please let me know. This is a kind of famous issue among the Lexicon circle.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu...

While your argument is interesting & fulla info, I must disagree with it for several reasons. First, the meaning of Easter as used today was well-known to the AV men; they considered it to be, along with Christmas, one of the two holiest days of the year. They even included an 'Easter-Finder' in the AV. Thus, there coulda been no mistake on their part to have known the definition of Easter.

Next, there's no indication that Herod was observing any religious rite whatsoever at that time. And it stands to reason that if his rite wouda forbidden for him to have turned Peter over to the Jews at that time, it woulda forbidden him to have busted Peter to begin with. And I don't believe Luke woulda used the same word for Ishtar to have referred to one of the most sacred of Israeli rites. Instead, he used the same word which he'd used throughout his writings to refer to Passover, so "Passover" was clearly his intent.

Given the holiness of Easter to the Anglicans, who in 1611 clearly used its modern meaning, I don't believe they'da used it in any sense to have associated it with Ishtar in any manner. The most logical explanations are that they had a moment of nostalgia & used it in its old meaning, or that someone simply GOOFED.

Many defenses for KJV are based on that Easter=Passover in 16-17c,which I have noticed but would reject.
I believe KJV scholars differentiated its meaning in Acts 12:4 from its meanings in other 28 spots, because they found the contradiction in time sequence, and their discovery from the archaeological studies revealed it has another meaning.
BTW, we should not use the term " Easter" for the Day of Resurrection.

 

[Eliyahu]

Some more words which are not found:

Κομιειται (Col 3:25)

πραιροι ( 2 Cor 9:7)

προκατηγγελμενην ( 2 Cor 9:5)

All the conjugations which are in minority Text or CT are found in Lexicons, but many words which are included in MT but not in CT are not found in those Lexicons.

 

[Logos1560]

There used to be an account that the KJV translators had originally included the word as "passover" in Acts 12:4 previous to the archetype going to press.

HankD

It was mentioned again on page 5, post #44 of this thread.

Edward Whiston indicated that a great prelate, the chief supervisor of the KJV, inserted “Easter” back into the text of the KJV at this verse as one of the 14 changes he was said to have made (Life, p. 49). In his 1648 sermon entitled “Truth and Love,“ Thomas Hill also noted that Acts 12:4 “was another place that was altered (as you have heard) to keep up that holy time of Easter, as they would think it” (Six Sermons, p. 25).

 

[Deacon]

Indeed, there are hundreds ( or even more) of words which are not found in Greek Lexicons but used in Majority Texts or in TR. I have not organized them but a few can be listed. I can guess or imagine what they mean but cannot determine exactly reflecting the nuance and the mood, tense etc.

Εκκακωμεν ( εγκακωμεν) - Gal 6:9
ληψεσθε ( λημψεσθε) John
παραληψομαι ( παραλημψομαι) - John 14

Cool, I never realized that!
You can actually see why copying the exact spelling would have been very difficult.
Even when WE see the word is typed out, they appear very similar.

I've read that errors such as these were common;
amidst the Byzantine text-type manuscripts alone there are approximately twenty variants per page.

It would be easiest to look up the word in the Critical text for a proper definition.
Sometimes these variants are listed within the text of the definition.

Example:
Εκκακωμεν ( εγκακωμεν) - Gal 6:9
See Thayer's G-E Lexicon p. 166 - first column, second word.

Of course this is also where a computerized search program like Logos excels.
Word searchs can be performed within a chosen lexicon to search for the variant.

Rob

 

[Brother Gill]

Thank You All

:godisgood: I want to thank you all for answering my question about the KJV. I do realize some of my information about the copy right may have been incorrect. I promise I will read all the post here with an open mind and heart. There is a lot of information here to look into. And I will do just that. The information I find out may determine what college I go to. No matter what I plan on going forward in my walk with God in knowing Him. I will not divide on this matter with any-one but for know I am KJO. Would I use another? The answer is only if I had to. Would I attend a sermon out of the NKJ or NIV? Yes but I would preach out of the KJV. I would have to say maybe I am not IFB. Just A friend of God. But Baptist in doctrine. Is there a college That believes what I do. No matter I must find out what is 100% true and not just assume that I am right. If I did that I would start my own Church and call My Church of Christ...lol....I should copy wight that name.I love you all. Please pray for me as God works on my heart. I am looking for a college that is family friendly. :1_grouphug:

 

[robycop3]

Eliyahu:Many defenses for KJV are based on that Easter=Passover in 16-17c,which I have noticed but would reject.
I believe KJV scholars differentiated its meaning in Acts 12:4 from its meanings in other 28 spots, because they found the contradiction in time sequence, and their discovery from the archaeological studies revealed it has another meaning.

But they gave no explanation, either in their preface nor in a marginal note for their aberration as they did in other instances, for example, the second them in Psalm 12:7 & "or, O day starre" for "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:7.


BTW, we should not use the term " Easter" for the Day of Resurrection.

Nor should we use the English names for the days of the week, as they're all pagan in origin also. But it's hardta change over 400 years of tradition.

 

[Hawaiiski]

Logos' statements are well documented. He has authored a book showing all the differences.

How can I obtain a copy of this book?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

How can I obtain a copy of this book?

He has posted links elsewhere - PM Logos and ask where you can find a copy.


I think this thread has gone on long enough.

Samo - samo. There are no new arguments from either side.