OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You have a different take but nevertheless it sounds like dispensational nonsense to me.
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Please Explain the Woman, the Child, and the Wilderness in Rev. 12
- Thread starter InTheLight
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You have a different take but nevertheless it sounds like dispensational nonsense to me.
At least he is taking it literally!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No he isn't. Where is the word army mentioned in Revelation 12?
I don't know if it necessitates a dispensational framework. One can take a futurist interpretation of the passage and not be confined to a dispensational matrix.
But does it need to be taken literally? Can it be taken literally?
I still maintain the text of Revelation is not intended to be taken from strict, wooden futurist literalism. If for no other reason than there exist creatures and concepts which have no existence of all known creation and scenes which would defy the laws of nature of taken literally.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I don't know if it necessitates a dispensational framework. One can take a futurist interpretation of the passage and not be confined to a dispensational matrix.
Depends on what you mean by futurist!
An army is described as a flood several times in scriptures. Jesus himself said Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
This is the flood spoken of by Isaiah;
Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
All of these scriptures are speaking of the same thing, a great army composed of many nations shall come against and surround Jerusalem, the Lord will return and destroy this army.
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You are right in that they do speak of God rescuing Israel, but you did not take into account other passages in Isaiah - and Paul's in Romans - that help us to understand just what is meant in verse 19.
I wrote earlier on this very passage:
Jehovah Nissi. Christ is our Banner.
When the "enemy comes in like a flood" against God and His people He "will lift up a standard against him." What is this standard? The better question is "Who?". We find our first answers earlier in Isaiah. First 49:12:
“Behold, I will lift My hand in an oath to the nations,
And set up My standard for the peoples;
They shall bring your sons in their arms,
And your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders;"
(See also Isa. 62:10.) Isaiah 11:10-12 deserves special notice (used by Paul in Romans 15:12):
10. And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”
11. It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12. He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
Christ said,
"If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32
Earlier in John's gospel, John 3:14-15, we have his first mention of Christ as our Banner:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life"
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That happened in 70AD!
winman said:
The Lord returned to earth in 70 AD and defeated the Roman armies? Sheesh!
This is not what Revelation 12 is speaking of, in Revelation 12 Israel is saved, not destroyed by the earth swallowing up the flood sent out after it.
Zechariah says the Lord shall come to save the Jews, not destroy them as in 70 A.D..
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
In 70 A.D. Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews dispersed among the nations. This is not what Zechariah is describing, and this is not what Revelations 12 is describing. In the last days a great army from many nations shall come against Israel and surround Jerusalem, but Jesus himself will return and defend Jerusalem. Jesus will fight AGAINST these nations that attack Israel. Jerusalem will be saved, not destroyed.
I don't know if it necessitates a dispensational framework. One can take a futurist interpretation of the passage and not be confined to a dispensational matrix.
I'd love to know, briefly, what is the matrix that you hold to. You've made reference in other places to your historic premil stance; care to share?
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The scripture that Winman so aptly misapplied (as is typical of him) was fulfilled 66-70 AD, see:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63301&highlight=surrounded
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
If you check the passage referenced, Luke 21:20,21, there is no mention of
So SHEEESSH all you want it doesn't change the truth.