You didn't answer my question. Here it is again.
A name, thread name, and post number will do.
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Please explain this.
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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The statement was that regeneration leads to salvation. My objection is that regeneration is not external to salvation (one is not regenerated and then saved). Your explanation was that men cannot have faith when they are spiritually dead. I (perhaps mistakenly) took your comment as indicating regeneration to be making one spiritually alive (regeneration first as faith is dependent on regeneration). If so, then one must be given spiritual life to have faith (here I would agree). But to say being gifted spiritual life leads to being saved is wrong. Regeneration is also dependent on faith.You didn't answer my question. Here it is again.A name, thread name, and post number will do.
It is the same as saying being in Christ leads to salvation. Or justification leads to salvation. These are aspects of salvation, as is regeneration.
Who said that?
Correct.
Which is why I never said it. Again, regeneration and faith are both simultaneous results of God's enabling Grace. To try to cleave them in two is a grave error. And to limit, or even link, salvation to either is another serious error. Salvation, unlike regeneration, is a life long process (and I don't like that word but it nevertheless fits). We are positionally saved at the time of regeneration, but that salvation is infantile, as a new babe in Christ. And true salvation will grow and mature over the believer's entire lifetime.
Many Christians view salvation as a line in the sand. With only two facets: before and after.
But true salvation is so much more! It is a many faceted gem, but each and every facet is the product of the polished surface of a deep and magnificent diamond-like Grace that all facets or our salvation are utterly dependent upon.
I attended the UK Gideons International Conference last weekend. We heard a number of people giving their testimonies. One fellow recounted how, at some point in his life, he felt he ought to find out about God. That feeling IMO was undoubtedly put into His heart by God the Holy Spirit. Was he then regenerate? Was he saved at that point? Hardly, but he was put on a path that lead to his salvation (via reading a Gideon N.T.
).This is why I think it's helpful to look at regenerate as a 'process' (I don't like the word either, but I'm struggling to find a better one) that starts with 'awakening' and ends with repentance and faith.
This article sets out my understanding in a little more depth.
https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/08/15/new-birth-7-the-order-of-the-new-birth/
Insofar as God uses means to draw His elect unto Himself, I will agree. In my case God sent times of great difficulty into my life to teach me that, contrary to my own opinion of myself, there were some things in life I was not equipped to handle.
At that point I heard the preaching of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, and was told to "cast all my care upon Him for He cares for you."
It was at that point that God completed the "process" (and I too dislike the word but how else can I explain it?) of drawing me unto Himself, through the circumstances of life and the Spirit empowered preaching of the word of God, and I was regenerated, enabled to believe, enabled to repent, enabled to trust, enabled to love, and enabled to obey Him and His word.
Perhaps the circumstances of life was the "labor" of pre-birth. The preaching was the "final push" and the regeneration was when I found myself in a different sphere of existence, with a new life, a new hope, a new future, and a new, much brighter, outlook.
It seems we have found common ground.
SG in post # 10. I largely agree with him except the wording that "regeneration leads to salvation" because I understand regeneration to be a vital aspect of salvation itself.
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Okay, I went back and read his post. (I may have missed it because I seldom read his posts in toto, but don't tell him I said that!
)But in the context does he mean that regeneration precedes salvation?
Or that regeneration results in the life long experience of salvation?
Or that regeneration leads (eventually) to our final salvation, glorification in heaven?
The word "salvation" is a pretty fluid word. And trying to "make it walk on all fours" may be at the very base of this discussion.
Half the problem can usually be solved by agreeing on definitions of the words being used.
Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
If a person believes on Christ and calls upon Him for Salvation believing Christ will save them will they receive what they request?
Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Seems Jesus knew they prayed but they weren't answered.
Acts 10:
"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
Seems God accepts those in every nation who fear Him that is they believe on Him and have salvation. Now in Acts 10 when was Cornelius saved? We are told first that, 1
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
His prayers were heard and answered, but when did salvation come and they all become truly saved?
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
They believed and the Holy Spirit came upon them we see in verses 43-44, Cornelius believed as he prayed but we are told he was a devout man in verse 2. Was he a believer already and the rest needed salvation? His prayer for salvation was heard. He was told to one thing and one thing only and he had to decide whether to follow those instructions, he had to use his volition and: "5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:"
He had to choose to send men to Joppa guess what he did exactly that. But again when was he saved?
1 peter 3:
"8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."
Let's look at this one thing here? He is listing for believers things we should and shouldn't do, isn't he?
Well if that be so then we have Revelation 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
God chastens the believer who does evil correct? Those who do evil while a believer the Lord's face is against them and He chastens them, until they either repent or until He turns them over to satan for destruction of the flesh. Hebrews 12:6 "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth." Hebrews 12:8 "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."
What of these believers who fail to repent and continue to sin we see James 4:2-4, these are doing evil and yet James is saying they are brethren,
"2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."
They ask, how do they ask, in prayer but their prayers are not answered because they ask amiss, that is with sin in their life as believers. The unbelievers sin can't be answered until they call upon the Lord for salvation and that through belief.
Sanctification is the life long process. We are sanctified at salvation that is true as we gain Spiritual life and the indwelling spirit. But as we begin to grow and understand spiritual things we become closer to being what like Christ in our walk. Sanctification=Being set apart or Holy. As we grow in maturity and gain knowledge we begin to get closer to God. A former Pastor of mine said it was like reaching the "ECHO" zone the Greek word "Echo" meaning to have and to hold used of Moses in Hebrews 11:25 "Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;" Echo for the word enjoy that Moses refused to "have and hold" the pleasures of sin for a season and instead chose to enjoy "have and hold" the things of God, that was and is sanctification as we continually grow into maturity and begin to have and hold the truth of God more and more.Okay, I went back and read his post. (I may have missed it because I seldom read his posts in toto, but don't tell him I said that!
But in the context does he mean that regeneration precedes salvation?
Or that regeneration results in the life long experience of salvation?
Or that regeneration leads (eventually) to our final salvation, glorification in heaven?
The word "salvation" is a pretty fluid word. And trying to "make it walk on all fours" may be at the very base of this discussion.
Half the problem can usually be solved by agreeing on definitions of the words being used.
Regeneration is becoming Spiritually alive and gaining eternal life and that is what Scripture states we gain by Faith. Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" This all occurred by Faith not by works, faith in no way is works, it is an agreement with what God states about us as lost unregenerate sinners in need of a savior. The Spirit indwelling us and our becoming His Temple, 2 Corinthians 6:
"16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."
"Separate" that is sanctify yourselves, be ye Sanctified and come out from among them. But our Bodies are already the Temple of the Holy Spirit that is we have Spiritual life regeneration and that from Believing.
1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" 1 Corinthians 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" 2 Timothy 1:
"13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us."
All say the Holy Spirit dwells in us thus making us Spiritually alive and when does He enter us?
Ephesians 3:
"16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;"
Acts 10:
"44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost."
They heard and believed as the Holy spirt convicted them.
He dwells there by Faith so Spiritual life comes because of Faith thus regeneration, a new life comes by Faith not before.
Romans 8:
"9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
We can only be in the Spirt that is Regenerated and Spiritually alive when we have the Spirit Dwelling in us, and if we are regenerated in order to believe, as some hold, then the Holy Spirit entered us to make us Spiritually alive before we believe, isn't that a backward process?
Romans 3:
"22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Righteousness that Right standing with God comes from Faith, everything centers on FAITH. Justification, Redemption, regeneration all depend upon Faith in the Lord Jesus.
He is saying this to the regenerate, the believers at that time, and conversely, all believers from there forth. We ask in the name(authority) of Christ. The unregenerate have not this authority. Once regenerated, they call out and are saved. It is an event that happen simultaenously.
Those that believe have been born from above, regenerated, and they act accordingly. The unregenerate hate Him...they will never call out to Him in prayer. Their hearts are too sin crusted to want to call out to Him.
Wonderful verse.
For a pretense...they make a prayer. They falsely prayed. Look at what they were doing. They were devouring widows' houses. They were not God's ppl...in the redemptive sense...as they were doing widows wrong.
Wonderful verses.
Who are those who fear Him? Who are those who believe on Him? Romans 3 says there are none who seek Him, none who are righteous, none who understand, none who do good. Those who love Him are those who are born of Him[1 John 4:7].
I will answer the rest when I get more time.
This forum needs a "Your post makes no sense whatsoever and is a complete non-sequitur and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with either the post you quoted or the thread in general" icon.
Or maybe go back to my original opinion a few months ago: an "Are you drunk" icon.
Or maybe go back to my original opinion a few months ago: an "Are you drunk" icon.
corrected sin to prayers can't be answers
I agree with this. Sometimes, I think, we view the opening to the "Lord's prayer" as an introduction (as if we were greeting God) when instead it is a petition which sets the stage for prayer. "Hallowed be Thy Name". We cannot truly pray in that manner without desiring that God glorify Himself through us. The lost cannot pray in that manner (their desires are turned inward towards themselves, not outward to God).
Or, as Robert Zimmerman put it - "Do you ever wonder just what God requires? You think he's just an errand boy to satisfy your wondering desires?"
We need a 'waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay toooooooooooo lllloooooonnnnnnggggggg' icon! Brother mwc makes posts waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo llllllloooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggggggggggggggggg!!!This forum needs a "Your post makes no sense whatsoever and is a complete non-sequitur and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with either the post you quoted or the thread in general" icon.
Or maybe go back to my original opinion a few months ago: an "Are you drunk" icon.
Sometimes less is more.
I start out to be short but somehow I just seem to get on rollllllllllllllllllllllllll!
Probably because they are cut and paste from the writing's of others. And he usually doesn't have a clue what they mean.
Wrong again! This last one hand one short cut and past not the whole post. And of course if I post partial I get attacked by parties unnamed for not using the entire post
This forum needs a "Your post makes no sense whatsoever and is a complete non-sequitur and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with either the post you quoted or the thread in general" icon.
Or maybe go back to my original opinion a few months ago: an "Are you drunk" icon.
I like this one. Is he drunk, or "drinking the kool-aid." Leaves it open ended.
It is very clear he is saying. It is obvious you don't have a Th.D. from an online kindergarten and barber shop! (Doing business as Joe's Bar and Seminary.)
Here is what he meant:
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