Please help me to understand submissiveness. (My last word on this issue, I promise.)

[TaterTot]

A couple of quick questions
1. If a husband tells his wife to do something and she says no, is she wrong?

2. If a woman comes home tired from work and doesn't want to have relations is she wrong because of the needs of the husband or is the husband wrong for not being considerate of the wife because she is tired?

1) If a husband TELLS his wife to do something, she will most likebly buck. If he asks, she will mostly likely say "sure"

2) goes both ways. Find ways to negotiate. Often "tired" doesnt really mean "tired".

 

[ASLANSPAL]

I am responding to the original post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASLANSPAL
You are equal before the Lord , each of you have talents to help the other as ONE....she may be good as a real estate broker...he may be good as a handy man ....she may be good with the bills and taxes....he may be good at the cars and trucks mechanical up keep...she may be good at teaching the children about sex education...he may be good at teaching them sports....she may teach and reveal the bible clearly....he may be a living example of what she taught ....or vice versa...common sense and practically in seeing each other as something to offer to being ONE means a very smooth a speedbumpless Oneness. imho.

The Holy Spirit is the immediate help in these matters and in times of disagreement but basically its all about recognizing talents and having the
love to submit to that persons ability to do a good job and feel the grace coming from you to empower them.

In the Spirit of humility
Aslanspal
blackbird

vbmenu_register("postmenu_875547", true);
Moderator

You say nothing of Colossians 3:18-19

And nothing of Ephesians 5:23


so if you want to get something off your chest blackbird do it but I ask you kindly not to belittle my post with in what appears to be arrogance and you have abused my humble post and that is fine but take your verses and take responsibility for them and actually don't use them against me ...as a Pharisee would ...imho
Aslanspal

btw I stand on my post

Thank you Holy Spirit in how you help us ...in today's culture and today's times.

amen

 

[blackbird]

I've been preaching through a series I've titled "Order In The Home" from Colossians 3: 18 and following. I started looking last week at husband/wife relationships---and purposefully focused on the word "submit" found in v. 18.

I'm tellin' ya, folks!!! The world has seen to it that a numberless hosts of wives be shackeled and placed in the world's bonds and handcuffs with its worldly message of deceptive freedom---which is not freedom at all---but the world is captivating Christian husbands and wives literally by the droves with its false illusion of equality----which is brought over INTO Christian marriages---marriage is equal---its a partnership---50/50---100/100, 110/110, etc.

Lets for a moment stop and consider the word submit---the devil has made this word what us Cajun's call a "Cuss" word---cursed is the wife who submits.

But the word comes from two Greek words sandwiched together---Hupo--under and Tasso---to arrange

Thus the word submit---is seen as "to arrange under" and according to W E Vine--the word is used militarily--to imply order and rank!! Any person familiar with the military will automatically know how these terms are used---to make and give the military unit structure and cohesion---you simply follow a chain of command.

For instance, the Captain is in control of the ship---but aboard the ship are various other officers that serve under the Captain in respectful positions. Each position is responsible to the Captain and keeps the Captain informed and abreast of developments that may occur, etc. In a certain way---the various Station Commanders aboard the vessel is not only responsible to the Captain---but the Captain is dependant upon them as well. They serve to give advise to the Captain---the Captain takes the advise--weighs it---then gives final orders--but nothing changes until the Captain gives the "Say So"


Two Military Illustrations of Order and Submissiveness

During the Peace Time 1930's---the US Navy battleship---USS Tennessee was cruising off the coast of California. Naval Command had given the Tennessee permission to sail into San Fransico Bay. The Captain plotted course--gave orders for the battleship to enter the bay.

The Captain's orders included sailing the battleship into a particular ship channel that would take the "BattleWagon" close to shore near the city---and would give the good citizens a bird's eye view of American Naval Might!!!!

The Ship's Navigator---meanwhile---was studying the channel maps of the bay---and noticed that the course that the Captain ordered through a particular channel was dangerous. The shipping channel was much too shallow for safe passage of the battleship. The Navigator notified the Captain of the dilemma and suggested altering the course through another channel that gave deeper water for the ship's draft.

The Captain did not alter course!

The Navigator(under submission to a higher ranked officer) protested!

The Captain did not alter course!

Against the written advise of the Tennessee's Chief Navigator---the Captain refused to alter course----sailing through the shallow channel against the Navigator's advise.

The Tennessee grounded in shallow water----it took Navy tugboats 3 days to "bring her about" off out of shallow water.

There was a Naval Board of Inquiry

The Captain lost his command!

***This illustration shows military order and submission to authority---well as to the sorry outcome!!!

The Captain was in control of the ship---and looked to his division commanders for advise----unfortuneately--the advise was not well taken!!!

Sometimes in the home----Husbands are in control--and the wife is released to give advise(much as Piliate's wife so advised her ornery husband there stareing Jesus in the face to face showdown---"Have nothing to to with that righteous man!")----too many homes are run aground in shallow waters due to some cocky husband not heeding advise when he should have---but the final decision is his--whether he runs the family aground---or points his family toward safer water---its up to him as final "Say So"---but dear sir---please at least let your wifey dear give her "Know So" before you give your "Say So!!" Don't tell your wife to sit there in the corner and keep her mouth shut and don't give you any family advise or council---let her speak up and quit being so much a worldly husband that she's just got to obey you like some little puppy being whipped with a rolled up newspaper!!!

Illustration #2

Lt. General Omar Bradley of World War 2 fame---initiated what was called Operation Cobra---a "breakout" for Allied troops bogged down in the fighting of the Normandy hedgerows during the early days of Operation Overlord.

Part of the orders given by Bradley approved by Supreme Allied Commander Dwight Eisenhower---was to involve the US Army Air Corps in cooperation with ground forces poised to take the Operation Cobra initiative. The orders were for the Air Corp to fly perpendicular to the Allied Ground positions below and release bomb loads upon the German positions in front of the Allied advance.

The Operation was initiated---Bradley and commanding officers witnessing the Allied positions----the Air Corp B-17's came swooping in for their scheduled bombardment---but instead of flying perpendicular to Allied positions---the planes came in parallel to the positions---and dropped bombs directly onto the Allied positions-----killing over 1000 American troops.

Bradley immediately visited Air Command Commander---who did receive Bradley's orders to fly perpendicular to Allied positions---but admitted to Bradley that he did not want to risk his planes being caught in any sort of German Anti-aircraft fire---which he believed would have happened if the planes were to fly parallel.

Air Command refused direct orders---thus killing Americal GI's foolishly.

Sometimes Husbands can give family orders---which are then ignored or altered by wives---because of certain fears and phobias presented in the mind. Families are sometimes opened up to "Friendly Fire" needlessly--the wife frightened into changeing husbands wishes for the best---only to submit to worse things happening.

I am in charge of my house. My wife is my "Second in Command"---when decisions come up---I fill her in---or she fills me in---we weigh the situation--combining her mind with mine----then I give "Final Say So!" If the ship grounds----it'll ground---not out of husband's cockiness nor from the wife's submissiveness---but if it does ground---both the Captain and his First Mate will "go down with the ship!!!" I promise!!!

Blackbird

 

[ituttut]

This is a tricky topic and one I have struggled greatly with since I married my wife on July 29th. But I would think that if a husband loved his wife as Christ loved the church, and if the wife would submit to her husband as to the Lord, the marriage would be a wonderful caring relationship where both parties were always trying to please and satisfy each other.

Of course the FLESH gets in the way of this.

A couple of quick questions
1. If a husband tells his wife to do something and she says no, is she wrong?

It's according to what you tell her to do.

2. If a woman comes home tired from work and doesn't want to have relations is she wrong because of the needs of the husband or is the husband wrong for not being considerate of the wife because she is tired?

How often does this happen? Once in a blue moon is understandable. If consistent something is wrong, and the sooner the matter is cleared up the better.

Spock says, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". That guy is from another planet. We Christian men (minority) have our need, and the women (Christian) are here to fill that need, pronto, if not sooner. Of course, it is a one on one situation, (we being equal), so when she lets me know, I don't waste any time of doing my duty.

 

[deacon jd]

Yes I see shame, but should it become necessary (evidently not in your or mcdirector's case) the shame of it will lie with the woman.

I really doubt deacon jd yells at his woman to "SUBMIT", and if she doesn't yells "OBEY". It kinda seems to me some may be fighting The Word. She is not a "dog" to be trained to "SUBMIT". She is to do this on her own, as she in her "DESIRE" to please him, will willing submit, or should. As the woman's "DESIRE" should be to please her man, and she raises issue, then should she not be treated as a child? As mcdirector says "children are to obey".

You have read me correctly.

 

[blackbird]

Genesis 3:16, ". . . and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

The word desire----indicates a "stretching out toward"---a yearning---toward!!! No greater desire does a wife have than that that is directed toward her husband.

But yet----look at the last phrase of the verse

". . . and he shall rule over thee."

Submission has always been the heavenly order for the wife. But with the submission comes a worldly resistance for a wife to do it.

Eve failed in both the verses phrases

She desired the fruit over her husband and then did not allow him to rule.

Thus---submission comes only through a denial of self---the wife's "self" must be crucified daily. She must die daily. Moment by moment!!!

 

[Mary Diana Lynn Harper]

wife submissiveness: reguarding wife being

I have one thing to say about being submissive, both godly and ungodly women, when they are in love with their husbands, they want to please their spouses anyway. The only difference between them is that if what the husband ask goes against what God says, the godly woman will not do what the husband says. She will most likely go to God in prayer and ask for the forgiveness and be lead by God as to what she must do next. Weather it is being submissive to her husband or to direct her husband about the problem there is always a way to work it out when you are in the Word. :saint:

 

[PJ]

the wife's "self" must be crucified daily. She must die daily. Moment by moment!!!

Self denial is necessary for both spouses. The husband must also be crucified daily ... moment by moment. Both will be willing if both are within God's will.

 

[blackbird]

B-I-N-G-O, PJ!!!!!!!

It took us 7 pages to reach the conclusion that self denial is the only brush that God paints with----both spouses---Self denial---moment by moment!!!

Blackbird

 

[PJ]

:thumbs: Indeed, blackbird.

This has been a most interesting thread.

 

[ituttut]

:thumbs: Indeed, blackbird.

This has been a most interesting thread.

Yes, a good read on "self denial".

No doubt we in the Body of Christ each (man - woman) understand in our heart the roles we are to play. From the beginning of man and his woman, Paul points out the duties of the husband and wife. The man is to love his wife, watching over her, giving if necessary his life, and as you and blackbird understand allow her, her will if it is not of a disruptive nature. In this the man rules with Love, understanding, and compassion, carrying out his "commissioned" authority. The man has been appointed by God to "rule over our house", allowing the woman to have "full sway" in running the house, and other matters, within the limits both approve of. Ephesians 5:25-33.

We do not find that the woman has to love her husband (which we hope will happen), but she is to reverence him. She is to respect his wishes, and find within the framework of their marriage what is, and what is not acceptable in their marriage.

But we Christians, both men and women, can take solace in the fact that those that God chose in the past were just as we, most likely not holding up their respective end. The man can love too much when his love is misdirected, and the woman can disrupt, not showing the proper respect, allowing herself to love another. We see this in the lives of Isaac and Rebekah. This started out very promising, she, being so excited had to smoke a cigarette before drawing a vail over herself to show her submissiveness to Jacob.

Each lost their direction in their marriage allowing the love, and the desire, to turn into sin. I see the beginning of this to be the fault of Isaac, acting in a cowardly way by throwing Rebekah to the wolves, just as his Dad did. When the children arrived they both selfishly chose to whom they would direct their love. Isaac shows the pattern of most men in choosing the "all American boy", that hunt's, fishes, good at sports, and is a man's man. But Rebekah finds joy in one such as she. The boy Jacob we find out is a cleaver conniving man, obeying his Mama who is a cleaver, conniving woman. We must conclude that really, Jacob is really not a very nice person from our viewpoint, but he wants the inheritance, and Esau doesn't.

This is why we are unable to judge for we don't know the heart. All we see is what we think as despicable in one person (Jacob), and one who is happy-go-lucky, not knowing what is important in Esau.

In our marriages we are to know what is important, and it is our woman, or our man, and we will deny ourselves to please our other half.

 

[blackbird]

Yes, a good read on "self denial".

No doubt we in the Body of Christ each (man - woman) understand in our heart the roles we are to play. From the beginning of man and his woman, Paul points out the duties of the husband and wife. The man is to love his wife, watching over her, giving if necessary his life, and as you and blackbird understand allow her, her will if it is not of a disruptive nature. In this the man rules with Love, understanding, and compassion, carrying out his "commissioned" authority. The man has been appointed by God to "rule over our house", allowing the woman to have "full sway" in running the house, and other matters, within the limits both approve of. Ephesians 5:25-33.

We do not find that the woman has to love her husband (which we hope will happen), but she is to reverence him. She is to respect his wishes, and find within the framework of their marriage what is, and what is not acceptable in their marriage.

But we Christians, both men and women, can take solace in the fact that those that God chose in the past were just as we, most likely not holding up their respective end. The man can love too much when his love is misdirected, and the woman can disrupt, not showing the proper respect, allowing herself to love another. We see this in the lives of Isaac and Rebekah. This started out very promising, she, being so excited had to smoke a cigarette before drawing a vail over herself to show her submissiveness to Jacob.

Each lost their direction in their marriage allowing the love, and the desire, to turn into sin. I see the beginning of this to be the fault of Isaac, acting in a cowardly way by throwing Rebekah to the wolves, just as his Dad did. When the children arrived they both selfishly chose to whom they would direct their love. Isaac shows the pattern of most men in choosing the "all American boy", that hunt's, fishes, good at sports, and is a man's man. But Rebekah finds joy in one such as she. The boy Jacob we find out is a cleaver conniving man, obeying his Mama who is a cleaver, conniving woman. We must conclude that really, Jacob is really not a very nice person from our viewpoint, but he wants the inheritance, and Esau doesn't.

This is why we are unable to judge for we don't know the heart. All we see is what we think as despicable in one person (Jacob), and one who is happy-go-lucky, not knowing what is important in Esau.

In our marriages we are to know what is important, and it is our woman, or our man, and we will deny ourselves to please our other half.

Good post, ituttut!!! I think about old man Abraham "blowin' it" as far as husbandly leadership is concerned!!! Approaching the Egyptian "populace" over in Genesis 12:12-----I can just about imagine the conversation between him and Sarah

"Now, Honeybun!!! Those Egyptians are gonna take one look at you and they're gonna see what a KNOCKOUT of a wife I have-----so----follow my lead now---and lets tell them you're my sister!!!!"

And ole Sarah took Abraham's bait and ran with it, didn't she??

But it was Abraham who led Sarah into deception, wasn't it?? He took the lead---like he was supposed to-----and lied like a rug, didn't he!! Taught his wife how to lie like a rug, too, didn't he??? He almost got his head cut off---and was kicked out of town---and those Egyptians turned away the saving Gospel, didn't they???

Then the other episode in Abraham's life---when he and "wifey" were childless---and Sarah suggests----"Ummmmmm!!! Abraham!!! What about Hagar??? Look at her over yonder---she'd make a good "First Generation Jewish Sarrogate" Momma, don't you suppose?????"

So Abraham let Sarah take the lead---she led---and its been "Hell on Earth" for the Jews ever since---having to tolerate Ishmael's decendants---up unto this day even!!!!!

Role reversals will get a husband and wife in trouble every time, I'm tellin' ya!!!

But you say---that Scripture does not say that the wife is told to love her husband---but I just want to bring the reader's attention to Titus 2:3-4---what does it say there???

"The aged women likewise . . . that they may teach the young women . . . to love their husbands . . ."

It appears that for the wife to love the husband---is a "taught" thing----like, "Follow the bouncing ball"--------loving the husband is a taught command that is not to be omitted or overlooked or sidelined!!!

 

[chris777]

Women are not children in need of a big male babysitter. The attitudes here toward women are appalling.

I was stating this as an example of how the Man is the head of the family, and that he is ultimately accountable for how he manages it.
It is God delegated power. I am not saying I like the idea of being held accountable for how I manage my family, because I don't want to be accountable for myself much less someone else.

 

[Brother Bob]

Somebody tell my wife what submissiveness is, so she will let me have the "remote control" for a while! raying:

 

[menageriekeeper]

Somebody rather tell Brother Bob that he is to love his wife enough to let her have the remote without complaining.

 

[Jim1999]

We got a new telly 20 years ago and wife gave me the old remote. I am offically in control of the old remote, the old telly, and who cares if neither works?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Brother Bob]

<----Jim1999; The last 20 years, never moved.

 

[Jim1999]

No fair..You've been peeking.....:smilewinkgrin:

Cheers,

Jim

 

[blackbird]

No fair..You've been peeking.....:smilewinkgrin:

Cheers,

Jim

Its great to know that Brother Bob knows how to probe an intellegent mind every now and then!!!!!:laugh: :laugh:

 

[Jim1999]

I submit to Blackbird......:applause: :saint:

Cheers,

Jim