Plucked out of His hand

[HankD]

Dear Brian,

Your list…

Above, I mentioned 2 Tim 2:18, 1 Tim 5:15, 2 Pet 2:20-22, 1 Tim 3:6, Heb 4:11, 2 Pet 3:17, Col 1:21-23, and Luke 8:13 for starters.

I'll do the first one.

2 Timothy 2
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

"The Lord knoweth them that are His" Though their faith may have been overturned they are still His.

Also Paul speaks here about the "foundation of God standeth"

1 Corinthians 3
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

And the second…

1 Timothy 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

A Christian CAN be given over to Satan…

1 Corinthians 5
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:18

19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

You need to do the rest. you will never have peace until you work through this yourself.
Study your Bible and pray for wisdom.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

HankD

 

[VoiceInTheWilderness]

Origianlly posted by BrianT

I am not saving myself, but I can walk away from it.

How do you walk away from being made a New Creature. "If any man be in Christ, He is a New Creature, old things are passed away, all things become new."

How do you walk away from being born spiritually, "Jesus answered and said unto him, verily verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

How do you walk away from the predetermined will of God to adopt us into his family? " Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,..."


Oh and I do believe that eternal security is a fundamental.

Out like bad theology by a tele-vangelist

[ September 16, 2002, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: VoiceInTheWilderness ]

 

[donnA]

How about the verse that says, where sin is grace does much more abound. Meaning we can't out sin God's grace or His ability to forgive. If you could loosee your salvation based on your sins, then this verse would not be true.

I disagree with nothing HankD said, and yet I don't agree with eternal security. No one can pluck us out - but we are free to fall away on our own.

How? Just what sin does Jesus not have the power to wipe out,or forgive, what sin is greater then Him? Please explain.

 

[tyndale1946]

Hank D you forgot one... Luke 22: 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Question if Simons faith failed is he lost?... Or is Jesus talking about something else?... Brother Glen

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BrianT:
Above, I mentioned 2 Tim 2:18, 1 Tim 5:15, 2 Pet 2:20-22, 1 Tim 3:6, Heb 4:11, 2 Pet 3:17, Col 1:21-23, and Luke 8:13 for starters.

I think the first two were answered although if you are not satisfied I will give them a shot also.

2 Peter 2:20-22. Read the first 19 verses of the chapter to get the context. It is clear that the ones being discussed are deceivers/false teachers and not genuine believers. Verse 9 is especially damaging to your interpretation. God knows how to deliver the godly and reserve the unjust to judgment. Who is godly? No one except those to whom Christ's righteousness has been imputed. Who will face condemnation? Those who have been reserved for punishment.

1 Tim 3:6. What was the condemnation/punishment of the Devil? He lost his position of honor and authority due to pride. Satan's punishment is yet to come but this verse speaks of the past. It is not his damnation but his fall that is the point of comparison.

Hebrews 4:11. Again context demonstrates your interpretation to be faulty. Verses 2 and 6 make it clear that verse 11 is referring to those with a false profession, not a true one. The Word was not united with faith and they did not enter in to belief.

2 Peter 3:17. Notice the contrast with verse 18. Growth is being compared to backsliding. Stedfastness does not equal salvation. This passage is an exhortation to righteousness. You must clearly "pluck" it from its context in order to make it support the idea that you can lose your salvation.

Col 1:21-23. Vss. 19-22 deal with Christ having reconciled us to Himself. Vs. 23 establishes a characteristic marker of those who are reconciled, not a condition for being reconciled. It is all in the context.

Luke 8:13. Deals with those who have head knowledge, curiosity, and/or an emotional attraction but no true faith. During Jesus ministry, many followed then left Him because He didn't satisfy the desires of their flesh, namely by re-establishing the earthly Jewish kingdom for them. Many today use Christianity as a sort of self-help program but fall away because it was always about themselves and not Christ.

Most of these verses can be rightly interpreted by looking at their context. All of them must be interpreted by the very clear texts that say we are chosen by God for His pleasure and purpose. All of Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians 1, Titus 1:1, I Thess 1:4, Mat 20:16, John 6:44, I Peter 1:2, II Thess 2:13, Acts 13:48, Romans 11:7, ...for starters.

 

[M Wickens]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Hank D you forgot one... Luke 22: 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Question if Simons faith failed is he lost?... Or is Jesus talking about something else?... Brother Glen

At this point Peter was still unsaved. He had not yet been converted. The devil was trying to sift him as wheat in order to keep him from getting saved. By grace we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. If Peter had failed to come to a saving knowledge of that faith then he would not have been saved.

 

[BrianT]

Wow, I realized I'd be outnumbered in this discussion, but this is getting ridiculous.

Please forgive me if I don't address every point everyone is making. If I miss any you want me to comment on, please ask again after this post.

Originally posted by HankD:

2 Tim 2:18

"The Lord knoweth them that are His" Though their faith may have been overturned they are still His.

I'm not sure "the Lord knoweth them that are His" is referring to those whose faith has been overturned. By grace are we saved through faith: if that faith is overturned, what is the grace through?

1 Timothy 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

A Christian CAN be given over to Satan…

1 Corinthians 5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Again, I'm not convinced this connection is justified, that they are talking about the same thing. The verse I mentioned talks about someone turning aside, not being given over. Can one follow both Satan and Christ? Is the road not narrow?

you will never have peace until you work through this yourself.

I already have peace. To me, this whole issue is largely academic, for I would live my life the same regardless. If I am wrong, what effect does it have on my salvation?

Originally posted by katie:
How? Just what sin does Jesus not have the power to wipe out,or forgive, what sin is greater then Him? Please explain.

Hi Katie, I am not talking about loosing your salvation based on your sins. Of course Christ's forgiveness is bigger than any sin. I am talking about the point where one becomes so ensnared in sin again that they no longer ask for forgiveness, that they no longer believe in Christ, that they reject the gift of grace. Maybe this is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (maybe that's another discussion). I'm talking about Luke 9:62, which says "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

Originally posted by Scott J:

2 Peter 2:20-22. Read the first 19 verses of the chapter to get the context. It is clear that the ones being discussed are deceivers/false teachers and not genuine believers.

But verse 20 says they have "escaped the pollutions of the world" and "they are again entangled therein, and overcome". To me, that means they were free of sin, they had partaken of salvation. How can you escape the pollutions of the world, and be in a place where it is possible to potentially become entangled again, if you are not saved?

1 Tim 3:6. What was the condemnation/punishment of the Devil? He lost his position of honor and authority due to pride. Satan's punishment is yet to come but this verse speaks of the past. It is not his damnation but his fall that is the point of comparison.

Where does the verse speak of the past. It only says "the condemnation of the devil". If it is only his "fall" that is being talked about, was Satan still acceptable to Christ when he fell? Can a Christian fall like Satan fell and still be saved???

Hebrews 4:11. Again context demonstrates your interpretation to be faulty. Verses 2 and 6 make it clear that verse 11 is referring to those with a false profession, not a true one.

The verse talks about falling through unbelief. Falling from where? To where? Is it really a "fall" if you're in the same spot???

2 Peter 3:17. Notice the contrast with verse 18. Growth is being compared to backsliding. Stedfastness does not equal salvation. This passage is an exhortation to righteousness. You must clearly "pluck" it from its context in order to make it support the idea that you can lose your salvation.

Maybe.

But the verse mentions being "led away with the error of the wicked". Led away from where? To where?

Col 1:21-23. Vss. 19-22 deal with Christ having reconciled us to Himself. Vs. 23 establishes a characteristic marker of those who are reconciled, not a condition for being reconciled. It is all in the context.

But there IS a condition in the passage! What I was getting at with this verse is this: Christ will "present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled". What happens if someone doesn't "continue in the faith grounded and settled"? If the end result (being presented holy and blameless) is the same, verse 23 is pointless and empty.

Luke 8:13. Deals with those who have head knowledge, curiosity, and/or an emotional attraction but no true faith.

Here I strongly disagree. The verse says they "recieved" the word, they're not just curious. It says they "believed", and were not just emotionally attracted. If someone who falls into this category was killed in a car accident after they "recieved" and "believed", but before they fell away in a time of temptation, would they not be saved?

All of Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians 1, Titus 1:1, I Thess 1:4, Mat 20:16, John 6:44, I Peter 1:2, II Thess 2:13, Acts 13:48, Romans 11:7, ...for starters.

I'll try and wade through these later.

Thanks all,

Brian

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by VoiceInTheWilderness:
How do you walk away from being made a New Creature. "If any man be in Christ, He is a New Creature, old things are passed away, all things become new."

How do you walk away from being born spiritually, "Jesus answered and said unto him, verily verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

I don't know "how", but apparently it happens. Numerous verses talk of falling away, turning back, etc.

How do you walk away from the predetermined will of God to adopt us into his family? " Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,..."

I'm having enough discussion with eternal security, I don't want to get into predestination right now.

Oh and I do believe that eternal security is a fundamental.

Do you think I need to believe in it to be saved?

 

[HankD]

Dear Bro Glen,

I believe a Christian can make "shipwreck" of the faith or have their faith "fail" and still be saved.

I would point to the following passage from 1 Corinthians as a proof text. The Corinthian believers were carnal, babes in Christ, they were involved in several kinds of sin, one of which was that they were comming to the Lord's Table drunk.

1 Corinthians
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Brian, if you have peace then I believe you have the witness of the Spirit in your heart that you are a child of God no matter what your brain thinks.

HankD

[ September 17, 2002, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by BrianT:

I don't know "how", but apparently it happens. Numerous verses talk of falling away, turning back, etc.
As you mentioned you are outnumbered so why not give us specifics as to how you feel you could fall from His hand

Oh and I do believe that eternal security is a fundamental.

Do you think I need to believe in it to be saved?[/QB][/QUOTE]
I would prefer to say this belief is foundational doctrine not fundamental, and concerning do you need to believe this to be saved I think so because so many people who fail to hold this doctrine seem to have a problem understanding salvation by belief in Christ alone. For some people I feel denial of this belief is an indication that they may be lost. Before you get excited I am not speaking of you, but I do know some who this fits.
Murph

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:

why not give us specifics as to how you feel you could fall from His hand

I've sort of answered this already, in discussion above about specific passages: by not continuing in the faith, by stopping believing in Christ, by consciously turning your back on Christ, by becoming entangled in sin to the point where one no longer even wants forgiveness. These things are usually connected.

Sheep wander from the shepherd all the time. Yes, the shepherd will go look for them to bring them back, but sometimes the sheep is devoured before that happens.

concerning do you need to believe this to be saved I think so because so many people who fail to hold this doctrine seem to have a problem understanding salvation by belief in Christ alone

The problem with that, besides the generalization, is that what you describe is not a cause-and-effect. If one can be saved and not believe in eternal security (which you seem to have admitted), then eternal security is not the cause of believing in Christ alone, nor is not believing in it the cause for not believing in Christ alone.

 

[donnA]

Then what yoiu are saying you don't know if God would be faithful, even if you were not. We may fall into sin, and not want to turn to God at the monent, but God is always faithful.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by katie:
Then what yoiu are saying you don't know if God would be faithful, even if you were not. We may fall into sin, and not want to turn to God at the monent, but God is always faithful.

What does "God is always faithful" mean in this context?

 

[tyndale1946]

Hank D said: I believe a Christian can make "shipwreck" of the faith or have their faith "fail" and still be saved.

Hank you get no argument from me! I started a post in the Calvin/Arminian Debate Forum on the subject... If I Shall Fall Away!... I believe in the eternal security of the child of God!... Jesus Christ will not lose a one!... Brother Glen

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BrianT:
I've sort of answered this already, in discussion above about specific passages: by not continuing in the faith, by stopping believing in Christ, by consciously turning your back on Christ, by becoming entangled in sin to the point where one no longer even wants forgiveness. These things are usually connected.

It is hard for me to understand how you cannot see this inconsistency. All of the things you list above are works yet you would deny that you are embracing a works based salvation. If you must do or not do something in order to stay saved then you are depending on yourself, not God.

Romans 8:29-30 says that God foreknew us and predestined us to be conformed to the image of Christ. He foreknew us, called us, justified us, and glorified us. Our will is not present. There are no "ifs" or "buts".

This is why I interpret the passages with "ifs" as identifiers not conditions. The scriptures dealing with election and predestination make other interpretations untenable.

Sheep wander from the shepherd all the time. Yes, the shepherd will go look for them to bring them back, but sometimes the sheep is devoured before that happens.

Considering that the Almighty Creator of the universe is our Shepherd, I don't think any of His sheep will be devoured before He brings them back.

If one can be saved and not believe in eternal security (which you seem to have admitted), then eternal security is not the cause of believing in Christ alone, nor is not believing in it the cause for not believing in Christ alone.

The problem with this answer is that when someone rejects eternal security and embraces his own sovereignty to stay saved or not, there are serious consequences to consider.

If one is a new creature then he is identifiable by a desire to submit to God's will. An unwillingness to sacrifice or give up one's own free will (even when considering potential acts) should create concern.

We are bought with a price and are not our own. We will be conformed to Christ. God has declared it.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Scott J:
All of the things you list above are works yet you would deny that you are embracing a works based salvation. If you must do or not do something in order to stay saved then you are depending on yourself, not God.

It's not what I do that keeps me saved, it's what I don't do that keeps me from falling. I don't turn away, I don't stop believing in Christ, I don't let myself be overcome by temptation. If "believing" and "continuing in the faith" are "works", then even the NT teaches "works" are required.

Romans 8:29-30 says that God foreknew us and predestined us to be conformed to the image of Christ. He foreknew us, called us, justified us, and glorified us. Our will is not present. There are no "ifs" or "buts".

This is why I interpret the passages with "ifs" as identifiers not conditions. The scriptures dealing with election and predestination make other interpretations untenable.

When I see "if", I see a condition. Maybe you don't because your views on election and predestination don't allow you any choice. It might be interesting to examine if the points of Calvinism are mutually dependent on each other in this regard.

You say our will is not present. How can you say this? Where is this taught in scripture? Where is this evident in experience (and in the face of the contrary)? What kind of love turns us into robots or chains us to the floor?

If one is a new creature then he is identifiable by a desire to submit to God's will. An unwillingness to sacrifice or give up one's own free will (even when considering potential acts) should create concern.

If this unwillingness is evident soon after conversion, I agree entirely. But what about people who accept Christ, totally submit to his will and live for him wholeheartedly for years, yet sometime later because of gradually giving into temptation more and more, a person takes back more and more of their own will until they reach the point where they're thumbing their noses at God, if they still even believe he exists? I've seen it happen.

We are bought with a price and are not our own. We will be conformed to Christ. God has declared it.

We are borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. Why are there so many scriptures warning us to remain stedfast, not fall away, not turn, etc, if those things are impossible in the first place?

Carried further, if eternal security is true, why not give into temptation? I'm not asking flippantly, so please don't give petty answers. I'm sure you're familiar with the "license to sin" concept some thrust upon eternal security. But to be brutally honest, why not? I mean, I'm tempted to sin every day, and I think that it is usually because I'm not a believer in eternal security that I do my best to avoid sinning, because I don't want to wander down the slippery slope that would potentially lead me to saying "phooey" to the Christian faith. But if I'm eternally secure, why not cheat on my taxes, sleep with the hottie at work, skip church, and punch that stupid jerk in the nose? I mean, I know scripture says were not to do those things, but I'm forgiven anyways, right? Maybe choosing to treat eternal security that way would show a huge spiritual immaturity, but so what?

 

[HankD]

Why not give into temptation?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
...
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

HankD

[ September 17, 2002, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Why not give into temptation?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
...
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

</font>[/QUOTE]Keep his commandments? That sounds like "work". I don't need to do "work" to keep my salvation.

 

[Helen]

Brian,

Reading the different posts here, I think you might be mixing up two things. One is salvation and the other is 'running the race' or going for the rewards and those prized words, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

In Psalm 1 we read that the wicked will not stand in the judgment. That is obviously NOT the judgment about where they are going, but a judgment which involves only those who are saved. That is because there ARE rewards in heaven. Look at Matthew 5:19. Jesus is talking:

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

They are all in heaven. Some are great. Some are 'the least.' All of this group, however, were saved.

The race we run is not to maintain our salvation, but to honor and love God consistently, obeying the Holy Spirit in our hearts. The reason you don't stray is because you no longer has a heart that wants to. Before you were saved you WANTED to keep your distance from God. Genesis 8:21 tells us that all people are inclined toward evil from childhood. One of the major differences between the unsaved and the saved is that the saved, born again Christian, no longer wants to sin. We do, but we are rightly ashamed of it. If we are still looking for excuses then I hope that we are very new Christians! For discipline will come!

Philippians 1:6 says God is faithful to complete the good work He has begun. Christians are in His hands start to finish.

Want to walk away? Accidently stray? Jesus goes out after you. He promised this. You are His. You are not your own. Your life is hid with Christ in God. You are firmly enclosed within the fence of His love.

I am a sheep. Sheep are the stupidest and most helpless of animals! They require the shepherd for everything. I could not buy myself, I cannot take care of myself, I cannot supply for myself, I cannot heal myself -- all is Christ in me. I am His simply and completely and eternally. It doesn't matter how stupid I get if I start straying. He'll haul me back in again!

But if I choose to stay very close to Him, keep my eyes on Him, and obey Him when He gives me directions, then He will certainly be more pleased with me than if I am constantly wandering off on my own. That's the 'running the race' part. That is what Paul consistently warned about. Don't stray. Stay vigilent. Keep your eye on Jesus. Exert a little self-control when that grass 'over there' looks so good...

We won't lose our salvation, but we can sure hurt ourselves, sadden Christ, and cause extra problems for the flock!

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by BrianT:

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
[qb]
why not give us specifics as to how you feel you could fall from His hand

I've sort of answered this already, in discussion above about specific passages: by not continuing in the faith, by stopping believing in Christ, by consciously turning your back on Christ, by becoming entangled in sin to the point where one no longer even wants forgiveness.
Brian who decides what that point of sin is?

Sheep wander from the shepherd all the time. Yes, the shepherd will go look for them to bring them back, but sometimes the sheep is devoured before that happens.

Devoured please tell me how this holds against Jesus statement no one can pluck out of His hand, at first you said we can jump out but here it seems we can be devoured so which is it. Is it possible that there is no stopping point to this line of thinking.
Murph