Originally posted by BrianT:
It's not what I do that keeps me saved, it's what I don't do that keeps me from falling. I don't turn away, I don't stop believing in Christ, I don't let myself be overcome by temptation. If "believing" and "continuing in the faith" are "works", then even the NT teaches "works" are required.
If this were true then man, not God, is sovereign. Each time a man changed His mind, God would have to react. Man's will creates a reality that God must cope with. I doubt you are willing to take your interpretation to its logical end... but that is the problem. The result of the belief that you can lose your salvation is that God is robbed of His glory and sovereignty.
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Romans 8:29-30 says that God foreknew us and predestined us to be conformed to the image of Christ. He foreknew us, called us, justified us, and glorified us. Our will is not present.
When I see "if", I see a condition. Maybe you don't because your views on election and predestination don't allow you any choice.</font>[/QUOTE] No. I don't because God says unconditionally in several passages of scripture (within their context) that we are chosen by Him before we even had a free will. Deal with the passages I presented and prove this to be untrue if you can.
It might be interesting to examine if the points of Calvinism are mutually dependent on each other in this regard.
I believe that each of the five points flow logically and scripturally from the first one. Man is totally depraved and will not seek God (Romans 3:11) of his own free will.
You say our will is not present. How can you say this?
First, I was referring to the passage not to our will in general. The passage has to do with our election. I am not a Hyper-calvinist that thinks we have no free will at all.
I think it was Pastor Larry that gave a great answer to this objection. We do have a free will just as God does. But our free will is limited by our nature just as God's is. God cannot lie or deny Himself. Until given a new nature by the Sovereign act of God, we lack any ability to do good.
Where is this taught in scripture?
Since you ask the question, I will answer although I do not believe this passage standing alone negates man's free will... Romans 9 says "Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?" How do you deal with this very plain and direct scripture?
Where is this evident in experience (and in the face of the contrary)? What kind of love turns us into robots or chains us to the floor?
In nature. In all Christian experience. In all human experience. Everything with a will of any measure is limited by its own nature. The "natural man" cannot understand the things of God therefore he cannot act outside of his nature and of his own free will accept Christ.
God saves us to freedom in Christ but also to be bond servants to Him. Both concepts are present in scripture.
I thank God that the Holy Spirit convicted and saved me. I don't resent Him or think Him unloving because He denied my "right" to pursue my own destructive will right into hell. Denying me my "free will" is the most loving thing He could have done.
Since you have seen it happen, the next step to take is to evaluate what you have seen by what scripture says. It says the elect will endure and that some went out because they were never of us. It does not allow for the possibility that a man can make a decision to over-ride the predetermined will of God. Our salvation is part of His perfect will not His permissive will.
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We are bought with a price and are not our own. We will be conformed to Christ. God has declared it.
We are borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. 
Why are there so many scriptures warning us to remain stedfast, not fall away, not turn, etc, if those things are impossible in the first place?</font>[/QUOTE] Do you reject scripture? Have you read Romans 8? I didn't declare it. God did.
God's plan for sanctifying the saints is through scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is exactly what these warnings are all about.
Carried further, if eternal security is true, why not give into temptation? I'm not asking flippantly, so please don't give petty answers. I'm sure you're familiar with the "license to sin" concept some thrust upon eternal security...
I could try to give a lengthy argument but it would add no weight to the one God gave through the inspired hand of Paul in Romans 6.
But if I'm eternally secure, why not cheat on my taxes...
Because you are a new creature in Christ, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and will ultimately seek to do God's will. We all slip and backslide. I did for several years. But God did not let me go nor change His purpose.
Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
You stated that you avoid sin because you are afraid of getting on the slippery slope that will lead to the loss of your salvation. This verse says we do not receive the spirit of bondage again to
fear but instead the spirit of adoption.... then within the same passage says we are predestined.
Salvation cannot be sustained by the human emotion of fear any more than it can by any other human work... or lack thereof.
[ September 18, 2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Scott J ]
