Points of disagreement.

[37818]

When two believers in the written word of God believe the written word of God is true, yet disagree on some point of teaching, it is always a disagreement on interpretation. Different presuppostions, and either one or the other or maybe both are either reading into the text or disallowing a meaning understood by one in the text.

The break down.
1. What the text or texts say.
2. What is or is not read into the text.
3. What meaning in the text is or is not disallowed for some reason.

 

[Reformed]

When two believers in the written word of God believe the written word of God is true, yet disagree on some point of teaching, it is always a disagreement on interpretation. Different presuppostions, and either one or the other or maybe both are either reading into the text or disallowing a meaning understood by one in the text.

The break down.
1. What the text or texts say.
2. What is or is not read into the text.
3. What meaning in the text is or is not disallowed for some reason.

One of my favorite sayings applies here. You are trivializing the momentous and complicating the obvious. I do not mean that to be snarky. What I mean is that the differences in interpretation among Christians over doctrine are obvious. Reducing it to three bullet points is an over-simplification. Why do Christians interpret the text differently? Often it has to do with the logical order of their theological system. IOW, what we believe about certain core issues causes a domino effect and the other related teachings go along for the ride. It is not a simple matter of just isolating one point of disagreement from a larger bundle.

 

[37818]

One of my favorite sayings applies here. You are trivializing the momentous and complicating the obvious. I do not mean that to be snarky. What I mean is that the differences in interpretation among Christians over doctrine are obvious. Reducing it to three bullet points is an over-simplification. Why do Christians interpret the text differently? Often it has to do with the logical order of their theological system. IOW, what we believe about certain core issues causes a domino effect and the other related teachings go along for the ride. It is not a simple matter of just isolating one point of disagreement from a larger bundle.

The complications are indeed real. But there are always fundamental reasons. Identifying the presuppositions is often the difficulty. Many arguments are carried on at the higher level of differring view points. And then go in circles to no avail. Only, if at all, to really agree to disagree.

 

[Reformed]

Only, if at all, to really agree to disagree.

Unfortunately, it has been my experience on the BB to find that agreeing to disagree is rare. The way some Christians act online towards other Christians is something they would never do face-to-face. When you do find someone that is willing to display Christian charity even during a disagreement, that is a rare treat.

 

[Reformed]

The complications are indeed real. But there are always fundamental reasons. Identifying the presuppositions is often the difficulty.

Identifying presuppositions can difficult with some people. Many times that is because they do not want to go on the record about their beliefs. It protects them (so they think) from criticism. It is sort of like a politician who is yes-and-no on the same issue. Study the life-span of many BB threads, especially the ones that get into any form of debate. There usually is a pivot post that takes the thread from civil discourse to misunderstandings, mischaracterizations, and aspersions. After a while, you get to know exactly when a thread is about to go south.

 

[37818]

Unfortunately, it has been my experience on the BB to find that agreeing to disagree is rare. The way some Christians act online towards other Christians is something they would never do face-to-face. When you do find someone that is willing to display Christian charity even during a disagreement, that is a rare treat.

Thank you.

Identifying presuppositions can difficult with some people. Many times that is because they do not want to go on the record about their beliefs. It protects them (so they think) from criticism. It is sort of like a politician who is yes-and-no on the same issue. Study the life-span of many BB threads, especially the ones that get into any form of debate. There usually is a pivot post that takes the thread from civil discourse to misunderstandings, mischaracterizations, and aspersions. After a while, you get to know exactly when a thread is about to go south.

Thank you.
Many Christians do not know all their presuppositions. Some not any of them. And some of us, whether we are aware of it or not, have the mind set, "My mind is made up, do not confuse me with the facts."

I honestly think it is possible for each of us who believe in truth to come to some kind of a greements as common ground to build upon. And work from there. Most of what we think we know comes from others. We all need to make what we believe our own, when and where possible.

My difficulty, when I have it, is when I am unable to understand the view I do not hold. What I have found, when I can, that is where I sometimes can change my view. That is more often harder than said.

Views I have changed over the years.
Pre-trib to post post trib.
Between the Friday crucifixion and Wednesday to an unexpected, for me, Thursday view.
And then discovery of what I believed from Scripture.
That the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is at conversion.
I went from a non-charismatic to a pro-charaismatic to an unexpected for me, partial cesationist.
In Genesis a day age view to a literal 6 day creationist view, still believing in an old universe.
That the sons of God in Genesis 6 were men, to angels and back to the understanding they were men.
And then other points of teaching.

 

[MartyF]

Unfortunately, it has been my experience on the BB to find that agreeing to disagree is rare. The way some Christians act online towards other Christians is something they would never do face-to-face. When you do find someone that is willing to display Christian charity even during a disagreement, that is a rare treat.

You’ve never met me.

I am actually more mellow on this forum than IRL. The forum and sometimes other social pressures keep me contained.

I remember someone at a outing from a company I was working at saying he considered himself an Augustinian. I then told him that Augustine was inspired by the Devil and those who read him and did not realize this were likely following the same. I did this with at least half a dozen other people listening. Of course I tend to be loud in person, so more people than that likely heard me.

Of course, this is decades ago, so my age has mellowed me a bit more.

 

[Deacon]

Many Christians do not know all their presuppositions. Some not any of them. And some of us, whether we are aware of it or not, have the mind set, "My mind is made up, do not confuse me with the facts."

True but do any of us know all our presuppositions?

We are separated by language, time, and culture from the authors of Scripture.
There is so much we have been programmed to know that the ancients never knew.

Of course just before I typed this post I wrote one that turned another one south.

Rob

 

[MartyF]

Unfortunately, it has been my experience on the BB to find that agreeing to disagree is rare. The way some Christians act online towards other Christians is something they would never do face-to-face. When you do find someone that is willing to display Christian charity even during a disagreement, that is a rare treat.

I believe your are a bit naive about your fellow Christians. Or you could just be deceptive.

Suppose a Baptist pastor wrote his father to ask any questions which caused the father to reject Jesus. Over the course of a couple years, and several long letters the pastor convinces his father of the divine inspiration of the Bible and to make Jesus his Lord and Savior.

They get together and gather the letters and put them in a book to be published.

Was the response from Christians, "Praise God another man saved from hellfire!" ?

Nope, it was more along the lines of "BURN IN HELL YOU HERETICS!"

We Took a Good Stand and Made a Bad Mistake

This is obviously not an agreeing to disagree situation.

I do not mistake flowery words for the venom behind them. People will act all nice when they are truly venomous snakes ready to pounce.

 

[agedman]

As abundantly shown on TV, there are many who really do not have a clue from where they get their opinions. It is seen with the crowd shouting for the crucifixion at the urging of the Jewish authorities.

It is seen in large crowds, small groups, and even in individuals.

It is part of the study of social society psychology. The conformity to a person or group that is esteemed, powerful, intellectual, or in some manner important obliges following irregardless of intellectual analysis and agreement.

The compliance of a person to another person or group becomes a matter of how or the influence the presentation may have.

For example: We may be repulsed by a lynching. Yet, be carried along in a crowd to a lynching merely because at the time it seems what is best. Again, I refer to the crucifixion as an example.

It is a very short distance from praise to condemnation.

 

[Reformed]

It is a very short distance from praise to condemnation.

Indeed. It is doubly sad when Christians do this to other Christians with nary a pang of concscience.

 

[37818]

Types of disagreements:
Biblical interpretation.
Logical disagreements.
Matters of history.
Matters of science/knowledge.
Politics.

 

[agedman]

Types of disagreements:
Biblical interpretation.
Logical disagreements.
Matters of history.
Matters of science/knowledge.
Politics.

Personality
Dialect
Hair
Gender
Race
Origins
Height

 

[37818]

Personality
Dialect
Hair
Gender
Race
Origins
Height

Those truths and disagreement over any of those play no role in one's eternity except to make inexcusable excuses.

 

[GoodTidings]

When two believers in the written word of God believe the written word of God is true, yet disagree on some point of teaching, it is always a disagreement on interpretation.

It is also, quite often, a difference in application. And I have seen where application is mistaken for interpretation.

What I mean is, God may minister a verse or passage of Scripture to you to meet a particular need in your life. But He might minister the same passage to another person to meet a different need for them. And both people see the passage differently in the light of how it was ministered to them and mistake how it was applied to their lives as the "interpretation." I have seen tragic theological debates take place because of that. Instead of seeing the manifold wisdom of God being manifested in both of their lives, they descend into needless and unfruitful debate.

 

[37818]

It is also, quite often, a difference in application. And I have seen where application is mistaken for interpretation.

What I mean is, God may minister a verse or passage of Scripture to you to meet a particular need in your life. But He might minister the same passage to another person to meet a different need for them. And both people see the passage differently in the light of how it was ministered to them and mistake how it was applied to their lives as the "interpretation." I have seen tragic theological debates take place because of that. Instead of seeing the manifold wisdom of God being manifested in both of their lives, they descend into needless and unfruitful debate.

Can you give a Biblical example of applcation interpreation misinterpretation or mistaken application conflation?

 

[GoodTidings]

Can you give a Biblical example of applcation interpreation misinterpretation or mistaken application conflation?

Sure. James 5:16, among other things, tells us to confess our faults to one another. It has been misapplied to mean that we have to confess our sins to each other which is the basis, in part, for why Roman Catholics confess their sins to priests. It is not talking about sin, but faults. It is not the word for "sin" in Greek. It is talking about weaknesses and refers to us confessing areas in our lives where we are prone to sinning and for others to pray for us. Things like pride, bitterness, holding grudges, a tendency to gossip, and so on. The application of confessing sins to a priest has been propped up by some to be the interpretation of that verse when it is just an application.

 

[MB]

Interpretation of scripture should not be any different than reading a novel. Any group of people can come away with the same impression of the same novel. When it come's to scripture most feel they need to interpret scripture. Which really isn't interpretation at all. It's reading in to scripture what really isn't there. Scripture will interpret it's self if we let it. We do not need to interpret scripture. We just need to accept God's words as they are or as we do when reading a novel. Let the Author lay it all out for us. Interpretation is why we have so many different views of the same thing.
MB

 

[agedman]

Interpretation of scripture should not be any different than reading a novel. Any group of people can come away with the same impression of the same novel. When it come's to scripture most feel they need to interpret scripture. Which really isn't interpretation at all. It's reading in to scripture what really isn't there. Scripture will interpret it's self if we let it. We do not need to interpret scripture. We just need to accept God's words as they are or as we do when reading a novel. Let the Author lay it all out for us. Interpretation is why we have so many different views of the same thing.
MB

Too often we also do not read with purpose.

I have folks who boast they read the Bible through at least once a year.

Now that is an honorable noble to do, would tha t others read the Scriptures as much.

However, reading is not meditating, and hiding (memorizing) the Word, making personal application that the Word can be used in the battle with the enemy of the faith.

We have so much more Scripture than the early assemblies. Does not then far greater judgment fall upon us for the lack of faithful service?

 

[MB]

Too often we also do not read with purpose.

I have folks who boast they read the Bible through at least once a year.

Now that is an honorable noble to do, would tha t others read the Scriptures as much.

However, reading is not meditating, and hiding (memorizing) the Word, making personal application that the Word can be used in the battle with the enemy of the faith.

We have so much more Scripture than the early assemblies. Does not then far greater judgment fall upon us for the lack of faithful service?

Some become so discouraged, they just place themselves on a shelf and wait for the Lord's calling. There is no greater thing in the world than the blessings of God. If we live in His will we will be blessed in this life and the next. It's God's will that we Read and study the Word and do those things which are commanded and written in it
MB