Pole: Who here believes Israel and the Church are one and the same?

[kyredneck]

Thank you! Hence, it is the NATION OF ISRAEL that was cut off and which will be grafted in again. The grammatical connections between Romans 11:25 and Romans 11:26 demand that the antecedent for "ALL ISRAEL" is what had been cut off - the NATION OF ISRAEL.

They were not cut off because of their ethnicity. Neither will their ethnicity be the reason for any being grafted in.

There is only one covenant of redemption and it is the blood of "the everlasting covenant" and one cannot be cut off from that covenant because it was settled before the world began and includes all the elect. That covenant relationship is all about one's eternal destiny. The nation of Israel was not "cut off" from that covenant (Rom. 11:5-6).

The kingdom, the same kingdom of Jn 3, was taken away from them. They were cast out, and the kingdom was given to others:

For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Ro 11:24

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:43

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

What they were cut off from was the immediate sphere of God's redemptive work on earth. God calls out His people from two different classes of people on earth - Jews and Gentiles. The two trees represent the two sources from which God calls out a people.

WRONG! This is totally unbiblical, Biblicist. There is no longer two. Of the two He has made one. ONE FLOCK, NOT TWO!:

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

 

[The Biblicist]

They were not cut off because of their ethnicity. Neither will their ethnicity be the reason for any being grafted in.

Note your own use of the term "they"! Who are "they"? National Ethnic Israel and no other and thus what was cut off will be exactly what is grafted in "again."

The kingdom, the same kingdom of Jn 3, was taken away from them. They were cast out, and the kingdom was given to others:

Again, notice that you distinguish between "them" and the "kingdom" and you admit that the "kingdom" was given to them and is to be taken away from "them." When it was given to them (Israel) the kingdom still was distinguished from "them." My point? Neither before or after can the kingdom be regarded as one and the same with National Israel and neither can it be regarded as one and the same with the church unto whom the kingdom is given (Mt. 21:43). Hence, you position which makes the church equal to the kingdom is wrong!


Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:43

For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Ro 11:24

Also you are wrong about your interpretation of this text. Abraham was promised a people from his own loins (Israel) and in addition to be the father of "MANY NATIONS." Both are promises obtained by election (Rom. 11:5-6). God draws these elect out from two sources (1) natural olive tree (ethnic Israel) and (2) the wild olive tree - gentile nations.

Here is the point! He will turn from the wild olive tree - nations - and return back "again" to the natural Olive tree (Rom. 11:22-26). Hence, neither tree represents the saved as that would require a saved and lost and saved again scenario. Instead, the two trees simply represent the source materials from which the elect are called out. When he is finished calling a people out of the gentiles nations he will turn "again" to the nation of Israel and "all Israel" as a nation shall be saved as promised to Abraham.

 

[percho]

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant (The church) whom the LORD shall call.

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

I believe the church to be the remnant called of God from the the house of Judah the Jews, John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not; The, "this fold," of John 10:16 And from the house of Israel scattered among the Gentiles. The other sheep of another fold, the fold to which Jesus was sent,
Matthew 15:25 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

The remnant, the church, rule with Christ in the salvation of all Israel and the residue of mankind. Satan will not be able to deceive men at this time.

See again Joel 2:32 and Romans 11:25 and Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

They seek the Lord and the ones called out, the church.

Yes, No but well Yes, to the OP.

First the firstfruits, the remnant --- The feast of firstfruits
Second all Israel --- the feast of ingathering
Third the residue of man -- the last day, that great [day] of the feast,

 

[The Biblicist]

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant (The church) whom the LORD shall call.

Where? "in Jerusalem" not "in the church"! You can add what you like to scripture "(The church)" but that does not change what it actually says does it?

 

[percho]

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: Acts 15:16

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zech 14:1,4

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. Luke 19:11,12,15,16 17

You are correct it will be from Jerusalem. Do you think these servants are from the church, who are kings and priests, ruling and teaching with the King of Kings?

I may be wrong but presently this is my opinion.

 

[The Biblicist]

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: Acts 15:16

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zech 14:1,4

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. Luke 19:11,12,15,16 17

You are correct it will be from Jerusalem. Do you think these servants are from the church, who are kings and priests, ruling and teaching with the King of Kings?

I may be wrong but presently this is my opinion.

Any interpretation of Scriptures that denies that God will complete the salvation promise to the ethnic nation of Israel is simply wrong.

Such interpretations rest upon the faulty notion that since gentiles are saved by the very same salvation promised to Israel in the Old Testament, then gentile elect must be the fulfillment. No, God only has one way of salvation and it is applicable IN THE OLD TESTAMENT as much as in the NEW TESTAMENT (Acts 4:12; Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23) and as much to Israel as to gentiles.

God has a purpose in his redemptive work and that purpose was primarily focused upon the nation of Israel before the first coming of Christ and then was moved to focus primarily upon the gentiles after the first coming of Christ but then will again be refocused upon Israel at the second coming of Christ (Rom. 11:25-28) and it is just that simple.

 

[billwald]

1700 years of authentic official historical Christianity has taught that individual Jews will convert to Christianity and the rest will end up in Hell with the rest of the unbelievers.

 

[The Biblicist]

1700 years of authentic official historical Christianity has taught that individual Jews will convert to Christianity and the rest will end up in Hell with the rest of the unbelievers.

The future salvation of "all Israel" as a nation is a nation composed of individuals who are individually born again. Just because the whole nation is saved makes it no difference than 3000 saved on Pentecost.