Poll: “Many are saved having never heard the gospel”?

[canadyjd]

Well as I have said before and it still holds true if you want to limit God, which you do even though you will deny this, then that is your right. What I have said is not another gospel but you will insist that it is.

I trust the sovereign creator God to do as He pleases in who and how He saves. You just do not like that idea as it does not fit with your calvinist theology.

Your view “many are saved never having heard the gospel” diminishes the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. It literally makes His sacrifice unnecessary.

According to you, when Jesus said in the garden that, if possible, to let this cup pass: I.e. is His suffering and crucifixion: God the Father must have responded by telling Him He had to suffer and die even though it wasn’t necessary to redeem His children.

You belief demeans the sacrifice of Christ. It demeans the name of our Lord Jesus. It diminishes His role in salvation. It weakens His position as High Priest and mediator.

You keep claiming I don’t believe in God’s sovereignty, but the reality is, you don’t believe what scripture says about how God has ordained, in His sovereignty, to redeem His creation.

The only possible reason is that you have looked upon God’s Word on this matter and decided what God has revealed is unfair and you speculate God will act in contradiction to His word and save people with another gospel.

peace to you

 

[Reformed1689]

Well as I have said before and it still holds true if you want to limit God, which you do even though you will deny this, then that is your right. What I have said is not another gospel but you will insist that it is.

I trust the sovereign creator God to do as He pleases in who and how He saves. You just do not like that idea as it does not fit with your calvinist theology.

Echoing what God Himself has said is not the same thing as limiting God.

 

[Silverhair]

You are correct, it is not freewill, which is the point. We have human will enslaved to sin. It is not “free”.

I don’t know anyone that denies people make. choices. The question is “why” we make the choices we do.

Romans 7 clearly makes the point “sin” is a controlling master that dictates our choices. We are slaves to sin. We do what the master desires. When the “sin master” is finished with us, he delivers us to the “death master”. Thus, the wages of sin (the sin master) is death (delivery to the death master).

When Paul cries out “who can deliver us from this body of death?” (This body belonging to the death master), the answer is Christ.

peace to you

You completely avoided what Rev said. "Free will is having a choice between doing it or not. A choice between either or."
It is not a matter of why it is can they make real choices. You deny free will so you have made it so that God is the only one making thee choices thus you have made God the one that causes man to sin.

 

[Reformed1689]

You completely avoided what Rev said. "Free will is having a choice between doing it or not. A choice between either or."
It is not a matter of why it is can they make real choices. You deny free will so you have made it so that God is the only one making thee choices thus you have made God the one that causes man to sin.

I don't think it is @canadyjd that did not read Rev, I think it is you that did not read @canadyjd

 

[Silverhair]

Your view “many are saved never having heard the gospel” diminishes the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. It literally makes His sacrifice unnecessary.

According to you, when Jesus said in the garden that, if possible, to let this cup pass: I.e. is His suffering and crucifixion: God the Father must have responded by telling Him He had to suffer and die even though it wasn’t necessary to redeem His children.

You belief demeans the sacrifice of Christ. It demeans the name of our Lord Jesus. It diminishes His role in salvation. It weakens His position as High Priest and mediator.

You keep claiming I don’t believe in God’s sovereignty, but the reality is, you don’t believe what scripture says about how God has ordained, in His sovereignty, to redeem His creation.

The only possible reason is that you have looked upon God’s Word on this matter and decided what God has revealed is unfair and you speculate God will act in contradiction to His word and save people with another gospel.

peace to you

What I have said does not have any effect on the value of the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. You just do not trust in the sovereignty of God unless it fits into your theology.
Psa 145:18 The LORD is near to all who call upon Him, To all who call upon Him in truth.
Psa 145:19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them.
Psa 145:20 The LORD preserves all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy.

Psa 145:19 sure sounds like
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

Yet you keep saying that God can not be sovereign enough to save those that do not hear the correct words. You seem to valve using the correct words more then the sovereignty of God.

 

[Reformed1689]

What I have said does not have any effect on the value of the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. You just do not trust in the sovereignty of God unless it fits into your theology.
Psa 145:18 The LORD is near to all who call upon Him, To all who call upon Him in truth.
Psa 145:19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them.
Psa 145:20 The LORD preserves all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy.

Psa 145:19 sure sounds like
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

Yet you keep saying that God can not be sovereign enough to save those that do not hear the correct words. You seem to valve using the correct words more then the sovereignty of God.

But the verses you quote aren't the problem. I do not deny "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." That's not the question.

The question is, who will call on the name of the Lord?

 

[Silverhair]

More strawman arguments.

That is just evasion. You still have not dealt with the post. You really have no rational argument do you. You just stick your head in the sand and call what you can not deal with a strawman argument.

Then you must be comfortable with the contradiction. Your DoG and 1Ti 2:3-4 and Rom 10:13 can not both be true.

Your total response "Of course they can. And they are."

So show us how they can both be true.
How do you square DoG {Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace.} with, God who desires all to be saved and whoever calls on Him will be saved.

That is not a strawman question but it is one you will not answer.

 

[Silverhair]

Echoing what God Himself has said is not the same thing as limiting God.

You still deny that God is in fact sovereign. Not the sovereignty that you seem to think He has. But then you seem to be comfortable with a number of contradictions in your theology.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't think it is @canadyjd that did not read Rev, I think it is you that did not read @canadyjd

Well since you are a calvinist then you must hold to divine determinism which means that God has determined all things that happen, so if man has no free will and God has determined all things then God has determined the desires that man has.
So in the end it is God that makes man desire to sin and then He punishes them for doing what He has determined for them to do. As I said your theology has a lot of contradictions in it. But you do seem to be comfortable with them.

 

[Silverhair]

But the verses you quote aren't the problem. I do not deny "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." That's not the question.

The question is, who will call on the name of the Lord?

Those that the Holy Spirit convicts and come to realize that they are sinners and are in need of a savior. Just as I have pointed out to you a number of times
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

As canadyjd posted in another thread "Salvation is a supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit and communication is between the person and God."

 

[JesusFan]

You completely avoided what Rev said. "Free will is having a choice between doing it or not. A choice between either or."
It is not a matter of why it is can they make real choices. You deny free will so you have made it so that God is the only one making thee choices thus you have made God the one that causes man to sin.

in your theology, its the will of man sovereign in the ultimate sense, as God Himself bows in salvation to us based upon what we choose to do!

 

[Silverhair]

in your theology, its the will of man sovereign in the ultimate sense, as God Himself bows in salvation to us based upon what we choose to do!

Read your bible, God saves those that believe. He set the condition for salvation so it is not man telling God what to do it is man meeting the condition God set. When you come to understand that then you will have a better understanding of scripture.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Notice the condition, the person has to confess and believe. They have to do this it is not done for them by someone else and that includes God.

 

[Revmitchell]

You are correct, it is not freewill, which is the point. We have human will enslaved to sin. It is not “free”.

I don’t know anyone that denies people make. choices. The question is “why” we make the choices we do.

Romans 7 clearly makes the point “sin” is a controlling master that dictates our choices. We are slaves to sin. We do what the master desires. When the “sin master” is finished with us, he delivers us to the “death master”. Thus, the wages of sin (the sin master) is death (delivery to the death master).

When Paul cries out “who can deliver us from this body of death?” (This body belonging to the death master), the answer is Christ.

peace to you

Of course we disagree on the extent of the effect of sin and how death is defined in scripture. Scripture doesn't ever say that we are dead like Lazerus. Dead people can neither choose to accept nor reject God. Dead is a word that is used to describe the separation between man and God not the inability.

 

[JesusFan]

Of course we disagree on the extent of the effect of sin and how death is defined in scripture. Scripture doesn't ever say that we are dead like Lazerus. Dead people can neither choose to accept nor reject God. Dead is a word that is used to describe the separation between man and God not the inability.

we are said to be spiritually dead in our sins and transgressions, correct?

 

[JesusFan]

Read your bible, God saves those that believe. He set the condition for salvation so it is not man telling God what to do it is man meeting the condition God set. When you come to understand that then you will have a better understanding of scripture.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Notice the condition, the person has to confess and believe. They have to do this it is not done for them by someone else and that includes God.

we are said to be spiritually dead in our sins and transgressions, correct?

 

[Reformed1689]

You still deny that God is in fact sovereign. Not the sovereignty that you seem to think He has. But then you seem to be comfortable with a number of contradictions in your theology.

How, exactly, am I denying God's sovereignty? Good luck with that one.

 

[Reformed1689]

You just stick your head in the sand and call what you can not deal with a strawman argument.

Or..... I call a strawman argument a strawman argument. Why would I deal with something that is not my view?

 

[Revmitchell]

we are said to be spiritually dead in our sins and transgressions, correct?

Is that all you have?

 

[canadyjd]

Of course we disagree on the extent of the effect of sin and how death is defined in scripture. Scripture doesn't ever say that we are dead like Lazerus. Dead people can neither choose to accept nor reject God. Dead is a word that is used to describe the separation between man and God not the inability.

Paul personifies death in Romans 7 as a master. I wasn’t saying the person is dead, only enslaved to sin which leads to death.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

You completely avoided what Rev said. "Free will is having a choice between doing it or not. A choice between either or."
It is not a matter of why it is can they make real choices. You deny free will so you have made it so that God is the only one making thee choices thus you have made God the one that causes man to sin.

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you