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Poll: Alcohol and Baptist
- Thread starter Mark-in-Tx
- Start date
Some one called Caretaker said the following:
"The drinking Christian has zero credibility to call upon the drunkard to repent, for they partake of the same drug, purchased over the very same counter. They are not only in the world, but are also of the world with very few degrees of separation."
If the person by the term "the drinking Christian" means a professing Christian who habitually drinks himself drunk then the statement is quite OK. But if Caretaker by the term means a true Christian who may enjoy a glass of red or white wine a day or similarly in moderation without any intents of getting drunk or in a stupor then his statement is pure dung. Then he condemns Paul's advice to Timothy and likewise Timothy who most probably heeded Paul. A Christian who leads a holy life according to the Spirit of Christ and who may enjoy a glass of red wine a day with a steak has all credibility before Almighty God to call upon drunkards to repent of their evil habit of sinning by getting drunk. To come and say such an one has no credibility to address an ungodly drunkard is pure fiction. But the arminian who believes in his impotent phantom jesus, he has absolutely no credibility before Almighty God to exhort idolaters to repent of their wicked idolatry, just as little credibility as the professing believer who habitually drinks himself drunk has in exhorting drunkards to repent of their sin.
Harald
"The drinking Christian has zero credibility to call upon the drunkard to repent, for they partake of the same drug, purchased over the very same counter. They are not only in the world, but are also of the world with very few degrees of separation."
If the person by the term "the drinking Christian" means a professing Christian who habitually drinks himself drunk then the statement is quite OK. But if Caretaker by the term means a true Christian who may enjoy a glass of red or white wine a day or similarly in moderation without any intents of getting drunk or in a stupor then his statement is pure dung. Then he condemns Paul's advice to Timothy and likewise Timothy who most probably heeded Paul. A Christian who leads a holy life according to the Spirit of Christ and who may enjoy a glass of red wine a day with a steak has all credibility before Almighty God to call upon drunkards to repent of their evil habit of sinning by getting drunk. To come and say such an one has no credibility to address an ungodly drunkard is pure fiction. But the arminian who believes in his impotent phantom jesus, he has absolutely no credibility before Almighty God to exhort idolaters to repent of their wicked idolatry, just as little credibility as the professing believer who habitually drinks himself drunk has in exhorting drunkards to repent of their sin.
Harald
The temperance revivals closed down many saloons, redeemed many a drunkard from the gutter, bringing them to Christ, and restoring a new man of God to his family, and to the community.
Now we see the Christian standing in line behind the Drunkard, waiting their turn to buy their booze.
Isn't it ironic that those that justify their booze, by Paul's statement to Timothy to take a bit of wine for the stomuch, have parlayed the statement into beer with their football on Sunday, wine-coolers and cocktails with their meals. The drinking Christian has zero credibility to call upon the drunkard to repent, for they partake of the same drug, purchased over the very same counter. They are not only in the world, but are also of the world with very few degrees of separation.
The Drunkard turns to the witnessing Christian and says,"Who are you to talk to me about Jesus, you were behind me in line at the liquor store last Friday".
The Christian outside the bar or the liquor store, passing out tracts and witnessing for Christ, has a far more credible witness than the Christian that enters and partakes of the same drug over the same counter.
The drinking Christian says,"But Jesus turned water into wine, and Jesus drank wine."
Answer,"So why do you have a 12-pack of "Bud Lite" and a bottle of Smirnoff in your sack. That drunk who was in front of you has just used the money for the babies milk, to buy his fix. You are in great company."
Now we see the Christian standing in line behind the Drunkard, waiting their turn to buy their booze.
Isn't it ironic that those that justify their booze, by Paul's statement to Timothy to take a bit of wine for the stomuch, have parlayed the statement into beer with their football on Sunday, wine-coolers and cocktails with their meals. The drinking Christian has zero credibility to call upon the drunkard to repent, for they partake of the same drug, purchased over the very same counter. They are not only in the world, but are also of the world with very few degrees of separation.
The Drunkard turns to the witnessing Christian and says,"Who are you to talk to me about Jesus, you were behind me in line at the liquor store last Friday".
The Christian outside the bar or the liquor store, passing out tracts and witnessing for Christ, has a far more credible witness than the Christian that enters and partakes of the same drug over the same counter.
The drinking Christian says,"But Jesus turned water into wine, and Jesus drank wine."
Answer,"So why do you have a 12-pack of "Bud Lite" and a bottle of Smirnoff in your sack. That drunk who was in front of you has just used the money for the babies milk, to buy his fix. You are in great company."
KenH
Well-Known Member
It would interesting to see the "no drinking of alcholic beverages allowed by the Bible" crowd use the same vehemence in condemning other sins, like gluttony(overeating) and gossiping.
But I guess it's easier to condemn so flagrantly only the sin that it is politically correct with the crowd in which we run to castigate.
It would be interesting to see a preacher get up in the pulpit and say, "All of you fat, overweight people out there in the audience are condemned by the Bible! Repent, and push away from the table at lunch today! Eat only Captain's Wafers for the next week!"
Ken
But I guess it's easier to condemn so flagrantly only the sin that it is politically correct with the crowd in which we run to castigate.
It would be interesting to see a preacher get up in the pulpit and say, "All of you fat, overweight people out there in the audience are condemned by the Bible! Repent, and push away from the table at lunch today! Eat only Captain's Wafers for the next week!"
Ken
I will be closing this thread today at 3:30 PM Eastern or there abouts. That will have given it 24 hours.
"But why? Isn't this a discussion board?"
Yes, it is. I will link you to my reasoning:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=001251&p=
Of course, it won't end there, so here is the link to why I'm personally opposed to the subject being propogated. If you start about halfway down the first page and read all the way to the end, you may begin to get a clearer picture of my position:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001255
Yes, but that's just you, Clint!"
Yes, but I am the moderator.
Clint Kritzer
Moderator
"But why? Isn't this a discussion board?"
Yes, it is. I will link you to my reasoning:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=001251&p=
Of course, it won't end there, so here is the link to why I'm personally opposed to the subject being propogated. If you start about halfway down the first page and read all the way to the end, you may begin to get a clearer picture of my position:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001255
Yes, but that's just you, Clint!"
Yes, but I am the moderator.
Clint Kritzer
Moderator
1 Thess. 5:
12
And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13
And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16
Rejoice evermore.
17
Pray without ceasing.
18
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19
Quench not the Spirit.
20
Despise not prophesyings.
21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
25
Brethren, pray for us.
26
Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
27
I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
28
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
May God bless and guide you upon the pathways of His perfect and everlasting will.
A servant of Christ,
Drew
Psalm 51:10
Create in me a new heart, O god, and renew a right spirit within me.
12
And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13
And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16
Rejoice evermore.
17
Pray without ceasing.
18
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19
Quench not the Spirit.
20
Despise not prophesyings.
21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
25
Brethren, pray for us.
26
Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
27
I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
28
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
May God bless and guide you upon the pathways of His perfect and everlasting will.
A servant of Christ,
Drew
Psalm 51:10
Create in me a new heart, O god, and renew a right spirit within me.
Hey Katie,
Like I said to Herr Brazee, everybody's body is different and metabolizes alcohol differently. If they've proven that one glass of wine impairs someone, then I've got to assume that that person was really small. Either that or I would question their definition of impaired.
For instance, I'm male, 6'4" and 240 lbs. If I were to drink one glass of house wine in an hour, my BAC would be .001/g 210 liters of breath. That's much less than what would commonly be considered illegal.
On the other hand, your average 130 lb woman, having drunk one glass of house wine in an hour would be at .003/g 210 liters. Still much less than illegal.
Katie, did you know that any lawyer will tell you that a DWI charge is one of the easiest to beat?
It's because there are so many variables involved that unless someone has an unusually high BAC, it's hard to objectively determine whether someone is impaired.
As for what is moderation, that's more or less up to the individual. The best thing to do is just to not put yourself in a position where you're going to be drinking excessively in the first place.
Mike
BrianT
Member
Member # 3044
posted June 08, 2002 10:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caretaker, since you won't take the obvious hint, let me ask you directly: did Christ sin by drinking wine? Do you agree with the Pharisees that he was a sinner for being a "winebibber"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No He did not sin, and you show me the wine that Christ drank, and I would concur that it would be acceptable. Too many drinking Christians use this as an excuse, a justification to go onto beer, whisky, and all sorts of wine coolers and cocktails.
My point is that to be a consistant witness one should witness to the drunkard not stand behind them in the line at the liquor store. The drinking Christian is a sorry witness to their friends and family, for we are to be witnesses for Him in all that we say and do. We are to pray without ceasing, to be in a prayerful attitude, a God honoring witness in all situations and activities. It is absolutly not God-honoring to have a drink in our hands, or a cigarette dangling from our lower lip.
It is a sad state of Christiandom when fellowship in the home takes on more the air of a drinking party. Of course the drinking Christian will continue to desperately try to justify their iniquity. I wonder why they are so desperate to retain their booze?
Member
Member # 3044
posted June 08, 2002 10:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caretaker, since you won't take the obvious hint, let me ask you directly: did Christ sin by drinking wine? Do you agree with the Pharisees that he was a sinner for being a "winebibber"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No He did not sin, and you show me the wine that Christ drank, and I would concur that it would be acceptable. Too many drinking Christians use this as an excuse, a justification to go onto beer, whisky, and all sorts of wine coolers and cocktails.
My point is that to be a consistant witness one should witness to the drunkard not stand behind them in the line at the liquor store. The drinking Christian is a sorry witness to their friends and family, for we are to be witnesses for Him in all that we say and do. We are to pray without ceasing, to be in a prayerful attitude, a God honoring witness in all situations and activities. It is absolutly not God-honoring to have a drink in our hands, or a cigarette dangling from our lower lip.
It is a sad state of Christiandom when fellowship in the home takes on more the air of a drinking party. Of course the drinking Christian will continue to desperately try to justify their iniquity. I wonder why they are so desperate to retain their booze?
redwhitenblue
New Member
LOL sorry I just have to laugh when I read something being said about attempting to wittness with a bible in one hand and beer in the other....for real, this is like going to the ski slopes with your swimming gear on...anyone stupid enough to do that has my sincere sympathies....especially with a suit and tie on ugh...but we won't go there. lol 
karen
karen
Mike -
I don't believe that this is a true statement. It may have been twenty years ago but now with the powerful political muscle of the MADD lobby, there is very little mercy shown in most states. Letting a drunk or impaired driver off of the hook is a sure way for a judge to not be re-elected. If you can cite a source, I would like to see it.
Romans 14:21-22a
"It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God."
While I do agree that there is no prohibition in scripture against alcohol in moderation, I do wonder why so many Christians (?) are so adamant about making sure that everyone else knows this also. The bold above seems to answer all the drinker's questions IF God's approval were all they needed?!
Could it be perhaps that the following is applicable in these cases??
Romans 14:22b-23
"Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."
Read Romans 13:14 - 14:23 en toto for a more in-depth discussion of Christian liberty.
Seems that this discussion (and many others on this board for that matter) do not take notice of Paul's admonitions regarding our relations with other Christians.
If I were not a Christian, the attitudes displayed here surely would not make me interested in becoming one.
I implore you all as fellow believers not to let that old problem of PRIDE rear it's ugly head as opinions differ on the various topics that arise.
Hopefully others can (will?) see that we can disagree without being disagreeable.
Lest you feel that I'm trying to show a superior spiritual attitude, let me be first to admit that I have bit my tongue and gritted my teeth many times. My biggest salvation re: this problem is that I'm such a poor typist, that I've generally calmed down a good bit before I can get anything typed & posted.
Just remember who we are (sinners saved by grace), and WHOSE we are!!!
"It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God."
While I do agree that there is no prohibition in scripture against alcohol in moderation, I do wonder why so many Christians (?) are so adamant about making sure that everyone else knows this also. The bold above seems to answer all the drinker's questions IF God's approval were all they needed?!
Could it be perhaps that the following is applicable in these cases??
Romans 14:22b-23
"Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."
Read Romans 13:14 - 14:23 en toto for a more in-depth discussion of Christian liberty.
Seems that this discussion (and many others on this board for that matter) do not take notice of Paul's admonitions regarding our relations with other Christians.
If I were not a Christian, the attitudes displayed here surely would not make me interested in becoming one.
I implore you all as fellow believers not to let that old problem of PRIDE rear it's ugly head as opinions differ on the various topics that arise.
Hopefully others can (will?) see that we can disagree without being disagreeable.
Lest you feel that I'm trying to show a superior spiritual attitude, let me be first to admit that I have bit my tongue and gritted my teeth many times. My biggest salvation re: this problem is that I'm such a poor typist, that I've generally calmed down a good bit before I can get anything typed & posted.
Just remember who we are (sinners saved by grace), and WHOSE we are!!!
Mike -
I don't believe that this is a true statement. It may have been twenty years ago but now with the powerful political muscle of the MADD lobby, there is very little mercy shown in most states. Letting a drunk or impaired driver off of the hook is a sure way for a judge to not be re-elected. If you can cite a source, I would like to see it.[/QB][/QUOTE]
Hey, Clint,
No, I don't have any empirical evidence to back this up, but I'm with police officers everyday and this is one of the things we talk about.
You can challenge the breathalyzer. You can challenge the hospital's procedure for drawing samples. You can challenge the field sobriety test.
The only evidence I have is purely anecdotal.
It's not a done deal that you're going to get out of it, but I've had several cops tell me that DWI's are easy to challenge.
Personally, I still hold that your best defense against a DWI charge is not to put your self in that situation to begin with.
Mike
[ June 08, 2002, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
I don't know about others, but I participated in this discussion simply because this is a discussion board, and because Ernie implied I was an idiot.
I don't go around proclaiming to everyone that I have an occasional drink, in fact this thread and the similar thread a couple weeks ago are the first time I've even discussed it.Amen.
Just remember who we are (sinners saved by grace), and WHOSE we are!!!
Brian