Poll: Antichrist

[BrianT]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
BrianT... Wopik had asked where Rapture was mentioned in scripture and I answered his question.

Diane

p.s. And thus we shall always be with the LORD.
And Jesus is where????????????? Seated at the right hand of the FATHER????

Although I believe 1 Thess 4:16-17 discusses the rapture, it neither mentions being taken to heaven, nor it happening at the beginning 7 years before Christ's return to earth. Christ is indeed in heaven now, but John 14:1-3 doesn't say that when he returns, the raptured people go to where he is *now*, but where he will be *then*: "..I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also." - all future tense: we will be with him where he is then - which, if this is talking about his return to earth at the end of the trib, the passage would be no less true. We would be with him on earth. That's all I meant.

BrianT., your profile says you are Baptist but waivering. May I respectfully ask which denomination you are considering? I ask because I read that the majority of new converts to LDS are Baptist and since you're questioning heaven...

I am not questioning heaven.

I am questioning reading heaven into passages that don't mention nor require it.

As to anything in my profile, you (or anyone) can feel free to send me a private message, and I'll be happy to answer your question. It's off-topic to this thread, and not something I feel like discussing openly, I already get enough heat on this forum for other things.

 

[Gunther]

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gunther:
BrianT, most people I know take that verse and compare it with John 14:1-3.

That passage doesn't mention heaven either. </font>[/QUOTE]I did not say it did. However, one could conclude that Christ was speaking of where he was immediately going. Neither side can say with certainty whether that is an accurate conclusion or not. On the other hand, it does not pose a problem for the pretrib position.

I am assuming you are posttrib?

 

[dianetavegia]

Rapture: The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000)

1 Thessalonians 4:17 -
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. NKJV

Sorry BrianT. I had replied to wopik's question about rapture. The word rapture means transporting a person, etc.... and scripture says we will meet Jesus in the sky and go to where He is.... which is heaven.

Diane

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Gunther:
I did not say it did. However, one could conclude that Christ was speaking of where he was immediately going.

What Christ said, is that when he comes back, we will be where he is. Not where he was.

I am assuming you are posttrib?

You assume correct.

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Rapture: The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000)

That definition, even though it is from the AH Dictionary, is only the dispensation definition. The more generic, and more common, definition would be to remove "especially to heaven".

and scripture says we will meet Jesus in the sky and go to where He is.... which is heaven.

No, the sky is not heaven.

It says where he "is" at that time, not where he "was" prior to that time. If Jesus continues on to earth, instead of returning to heaven, the passage is no less true. Thus, these passages, although talking of rapture, do nothing to support the *pre*-trib rapture. For timing and where we go from there, we must go to other passages.

 

[dianetavegia]

BrianT.

John 14:1-3
1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

This proves it to me, Brian.

Diane

 

[Grasshopper]

Tim, you will enjoy this I think:

Even those who believe the Law ended at Calvary do not believe Jesus entered his glory at the Cross; they place that at Pentecost. Now since Jesus was expounding on the need to fulfill all things written in the Law and Prophets, and since he did not stop at the Cross but spoke of the glory to follow, it must be true that the fulfillment of all things written in the Law and Prophets had to include Christ's entrance into the "glorious things" and this was sometime after the Cross.
These thoughts are corroborated in Acts 3:18ff. In verse 18 Peter says Jesus fulfilled all things written concerning his suffering. Notice verses 21 and following.
Peter tells them Christ would remain in heaven until all things foretold by the prophets i.e. the restoration of all things, were fulfilled. The restoration of all things is equivalent to the consummation of the glory of the Messiah. It means the Messiah is fully established in his kingdom. Thus, Peter, in speaking of the restoration of all things was speaking of the fulfillment of the rest of the Old Covenant scriptures — and this fulfillment was directly related to the glory of Messiah. When we examine Luke 24 and see that Jesus said it was necessary for him to suffer and enter his glory we can see it involves more than just the cross, the ascension and Pentecost. It involves the full establishment of the Kingdom of Messiah.
In addition, in Luke 24:44-47 Jesus said that not only must he suffer and enter his glory, but that "remission and repentance of sins should be preached in all nations beginning at Jerusalem". The fulfillment of all things included world evangelism. This did not happen at the cross or Pentcost.
And consider: to say that all that was necessary to abrogate the Old Law was the Passion is to directly reverse Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-18. Jesus said none of the law would pass until all was fulfilled. But the view that the Law passed at the Cross makes Jesus to say all the Law would pass when some of it was fulfilled. Specifically, this objection has Jesus saying that all the law would pass when one prediction, that of his passion, was fulfilled. But Jesus said all the Law and prophets had to be fulfilled; not just one specific prediction. Reader, when an interpretation completely reverses Christ's words there is something wrong. Jesus not only said he had to suffer, he said he had to enter his glory; he said the gospel had to preached in all the world. Fulfillment of all things positively entailed more than the cross, thus the Law could not pass at the Cross since Jesus said all of it had to be fulfilled before any of it could pass.
Finally, if you say the law passed at the cross then "heaven and earth" passed at the cross. Yet Hebrews 12, which positively is speaking about the passing of the Old Law under the imagery of the passing of heaven and earth, was written after the Cross and that passing was still future. Further, it does not explain how all of the law was not fulfilled at cross, in light of Luke 21:22. These are serious objections to the view that the Law fully passed at the Cross.
http://www.eschatology.org/articles/newheaven/passedaway.htm

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
BrianT. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> John 14:1-3
1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

This proves it to me, Brian.

Diane </font>[/QUOTE]How? Enlighten me.

"I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am [ not "was" ], there you may be also."

Where was Christ when he spoke this? Where will he be when he receives us unto himself? The answer to neither of these questions is "heaven".

The verse only affirms we will be with Christ, wherever that may be. It does not specify where that will be, only that whereever it is, we will be with him.

 

[dianetavegia]

These questions about heaven sound very LDS so I'm going to answer this last question and then this thread should return to Anti Christ, which is the original question.

Jesus said: I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

He ascended to the Father and is seated at the right hand of the Father........ not some planet or hidden place on this earth.

Again, you have too many questions about heaven and I gave you numerous places where heaven is mentioned in scripture.

Diane

 

[dianetavegia]

Ephesians 1:15-23 NKJV
15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

Hebrews 8:1-5NKJV
1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

My husband always says... You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear.......

Diane

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
These questions about heaven sound very LDS so I'm going to answer this last question and then this thread should return to Anti Christ, which is the original question.

Jesus said: I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

He ascended to the Father and is seated at the right hand of the Father........ not some planet or hidden place on this earth.

Again, you have too many questions about heaven and I gave you numerous places where heaven is mentioned in scripture.

Diane

Maybe you're misunderstanding me. I don't really have any questions about heaven, at least not in the context of this discussion. Yes, I realize and agree he ascended to the Father and is seated at the right hand of the Father, in heaven. What does that have to do with it? The verse says when he *comes back*, we will be where he *is*, not where he *was* before he came back. This is simple grammar, the straight meaning of the text.

There is nothing "LDS" about it, nor my beliefs. This is historical, orthodox Christian belief. Even Baptist belief (at least until relatively recently).

But to bend this back to the original topic, 2 Thess 2:8 says when Christ returns, he will destroy the antichrist with his "parousia" (the "parousia" is what the disciples asked about in Matt 24:3). If you search for the same Greek word, you'll see that 1 Thess 2:19, 1 Thess 3:13, 1 Thess 4:15 (one of the "rapture" verses!), James 5:7-8, 1 John 2:28 and others all exhort the Christian to remain faithful, waiting until the "parousia".

 

[Matthew 16:24]

Grassshopper,
Why are you providing links to Church of Christ doctrine? They took the meaning of baptism out of context, who knows what else they messed up.

It appears that, at the time the Antichrist is killed and his deadly wound is healed, a spirit will come up out of the bottomless pit to occupy the body of the Antichrist. This spirit was once alive before this was written, in approximately 96 or 97 A.D. (once WAS), but was dead at the time this was written (now IS NOT), and "shall come up out of the bottomless pit" at some future date (SHALL ASCEND). Nevertheless, the Antichrist will ultimately go into "perdition" (or destruction)-ref Rev 17:8,11 KJV, NIV. The people of the earth, who will ultimately perish, shall be astonished when they see the Antichrist that was in the past (before 96 A.D.) and yet is before them during the Tribulation.
It is written, THE BEAST (which, in this case, is the Antichrist) THAT THOU SAWEST (once) WAS, AND (now) IS NOT; AND SHALL ASCEND (or come up) OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT (or Abyss), AND GO INTO PERDITION (or he goes to destruction)-Rev 17:11.
AND THEY (the inhabitants) THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH SHALL WONDER, WHOSE NAMES WERE NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE FROM THE FOUNDATION (or founding, or creation) OF THE WORLD (or will be astonished), WHEN THEY BEHOLD (or see) THE BEAST THAT (once) WAS, AND (now) IS NOT, AND YET IS (to appear or will come)-Rev 17:8.
There is much speculation who this person (that appears to have lived either during the time of Christ or before) might be. Some believe it is Nebuchadnezzar. Some believe it could be Judas, because the Antichrist is called the "son of perdition" in 2 Thes 2:3, and Judas was also called the "son of perdition" in Jn 17:12. Some believe it is Satan; others think it may be Antiochus Epiphanes. At this point in time, we do not know who it is.
AND HERE IS THE MIND WHICH HATH WISDOM (or this calls for a mind with wisdom-NIV). THE SEVEN HEADS (which were mentioned back in Rev 17:3), ARE SEVEN MOUNTAINS (or hills), ON WHICH THE WOMAN (or city) SITTETH-Rev 17:9. Rome sits on seven hills or mountains. It is reported that ancient Babylon sat on a plain, not on mountains.
AND THERE ARE SEVEN KINGS: FIVE ARE FALLEN, AND ONE IS (living now), AND THE OTHER IS NOT YET COME (the Antichrist); AND WHEN HE COMETH, HE MUST CONTINUE A SHORT SPACE (or a little while)-Rev 17:10. Seven kings are mentioned here. The date that the Revelation was written was around 96 or 97 A.D. This verse speaks of five kings that "are fallen." These represent five kings, or possibly kingdoms, that fell prior to this being written. The one "that is," refers to a king that existed at the time this was written. The other that "is not yet come" is referring to the Antichrist. The Antichrist must continue a short space (or a short time) after he comes. He will reign in Jerusalem for three and a half years.
The following are the seven kings or kingdoms.
Five are fallen:
1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Medo-Persia
5. Greece

One is (in existence at the time John was given the Revelation):
6. Roman Empire

One is yet to come:
7. Revived Roman Empire (the EEC)
8. The Antichrist is the eighth and is of the seven
Some believe that the seven represent seven emperors of the Roman Empire. Five were dead, one existed at the time this was written, and another was yet to come. Others believe that the seven represent seven forms of government in the Roman Empire.
AND THE BEAST THAT (once) WAS, AND (now) IS NOT, EVEN HE IS THE EIGHTH (king), AND IS OF (or comes from) THE SEVEN. The Antichrist is the eighth king, but comes from one of the seven AND GOETH INTO PERDITION (or is on its way, or going to his destruction)-Rev 17:11. Dan 9:26 shows that the Antichrist shall be of the people that would come and destroy Jerusalem; this happened approximately 70 A.D. Those that came were of the Roman Empire.
It might be noted that the first beast (the Antichrist) came out of the sea-ref Rev 13:1. This may denote the nations. He may have been born and raised in a place other than Israel. His rise to power seems to come through the EEC. He comes from the old Roman Empire nations, yet he is probably a Jew. It would seem impossible for the Jews to accept any person as their Messiah, if he were not from the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[Grasshopper]

Why are you providing links to Church of Christ doctrine?

I don't believe most CoC would consider this their doctrine. Is everything on Baptist web-sites Baptist doctrine? If so I will point you to some who would agree with the CoC web-site. Would you accept it then? Or is your point moot?


The date that the Revelation was written was around 96 or 97 A.D.

That is your opinion. There are many who feel it was written pre-70AD. "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry makes a very good case for the early dating. Scroll down, there was a discussion on this very topic.

 

[bapterian]

Only the Father knows when Jesus will return. Be prepared to go through the tribulation period. I don't know if we will endure for certain, but there is no need to fear if you're in Christ.

Read the Bible and be comforted in God's assurance for the Christian. Read "Left Behind" books for some good fictional entertainment.

 

[Grasshopper]

Read the Olivet Discourse to see when.

 

[NarrowWay]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Rapture: The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 -
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. NKJV

Isn't this the only verse in the Bible the supports the doctrine of the rapture or are there others?

 

[Gunther]

1 Cor. 15

 

[BrianT]

Technically, 1 Cor 15 doesn't mention the rapture. It mentions resurrection of the dead, and change of the corruptible to incorruptible.

About timing of the resurrection/change in 1 Cor 15, note verse 54 which reads "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." This is reference to Isa 25:8, which in context doesn't sound pretrib.

 

[RaptureReady]

Originally posted by mozier:
We are indeed living in the End Times, and the Rapture is coming sooner than we think.

My only fear in all of this is that my wife and daughters will be left behind (they are not saved - yet).

mozier

Your family will be in my prayers. God bless.

 

[Graceforever]

Actually, I would worry more if I were in the majority.... Hell has enlarged her borders and many will enter there.... Few will enter in at the narrow gate.... God, down through time has used the weak, the minority, to confound the wise majority... Now, if this were a popularity contest, I’m sure that Jesus would be in the minority…..

 

[fgm]

Jesus Christ has reedemed us from the curse of the law.[Galatians 3:13]The whole letter of Galatians is addressing the church trying to drag the law back in after Jesus has set us free from the law.