Poll: For whom did Christ die?

[Amy.G]

Marcia, believe me, I don't want you to have a headbangy experience. I am not here to cause aggravation. For your benefit I would suggest not even reading this thread. I promise I will not address anything else to you.

Take care.

Ok. But my name is Amy, not Marcia.

 

[asterisktom]

Ok. But my name is Amy, not Marcia.

No its not. Its Amy. Quit arguing with me!:tongue3:

I have no idea where Marcia came from. Senior moment.

 

[sag38]

Tom, you first came here and posted a huge declaration and many responded to it. But, you were silent. That is trollish behavior. And, it is obvious that you do have an agenda. I am happy for you believe TULIP to be the absolute truth. That's fine. But, it appears that you are trying to teach and preach to us non TULIPS in a manner that is condescending and elitists. If I am wrong, then I apologize.

 

[quantumfaith]

Your comments are silly. Yes, I have an "agenda". I love the Word of God and sharing it with others, getting encouragement. I made no secret about the fact that I believe that Christ died for the elect, and that I believe in the TULIP. All that is in the archives. Must I wear a scarlet TULIP armband to satisfy you?

You will not believe this but it is the absolute truth: I am sick of debates - especially the ones here. It is you that wants debate, apparently.

And, yes, I was "defending my position" - apparently too subtle for you.

I remember now: You are the one with the agenda. When I first started posting here you maliciously accused me of being a troll, having others do my dirty work for me. People like you use to really stress me out, but I just put this - and you - in God's hands (1 Peter 5:7). If what you say about me is true, well, God evens things out. As many good deeds go unrewarded as bad deeds unpunished - none.

Take care.

Then why in the world did you start the "debate" all over again?

 

[asterisktom]

Tom, you first came here and posted a huge declaration and many responded to it. But, you were silent. That is trollish behavior. And, it is obvious that you do have an agenda. I am happy for you believe TULIP to be the absolute truth. That's fine. But, it appears that you are trying to teach and preach to us non TULIPS in a manner that is condescending and elitists. If I am wrong, then I apologize.

I started typing a whole lot, but figured why bother. Believe what you want.

 

[Rippon]

I did not say He died for any particular person.

Christ died for no one!

 

[asterisktom]

Then why in the world did you start the "debate" all over again?

The topic is the atonement of Christ. I will not refrain writing on this blessed theme to suit your scruples. My purpose was not debate. It was discussion. There is a distinction.

 

[Cypress]

No. I said Christ died to pay the penalty for sin. I did not say He died for any particular person. I think that may be the problem here. I don't know of a verse that says Christ died for "people". It says He died for sin. He is the propitiation for sin.

God loves the world.

Christ died for the sins of the world.


Webster's 1828 Dictionary [K-Z]
propitiation
PROPITIATION, n. propisia'shon.

1. The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

2. In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom.3. 1 John 2.

How bout this one Amy... Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

 

[quantumfaith]

The topic is the atonement of Christ. I will not refrain writing on this blessed theme to suit your scruples. My purpose was not debate. It was discussion. There is a distinction.

I have only been on this forum for a short time, but, as of yet, every "discussion" I have perused, has always turned into a "debate" and usually not a very friendly one. Often reminds me of the playground as a child. The "my God is bigger or better than your God" thing.

 

[Marcia]

Well, it actually does. But to your first comment: The prayer goes beyond His disciples of the time and reaches to His disciples of all times - us:

"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word.", v. 20

And, because the recipients of this prayer are much broader, the scope of Christ words in verse 9 ("I do not pray for the world") are accordingly broader.

But the OP question is not for whom does Jesus pray, but for whom did He die? Did you forget your own question?

 

[Rippon]

But the OP question is not for whom does Jesus pray, but for whom did He die? Did you forget your own question?

But Christ would not die for those for whom He would not pray. He does not intercede nor is He the Advocate of those He does not pray for or die for.

 

[asterisktom]

I have only been on this forum for a short time, but, as of yet, every "discussion" I have perused, has always turned into a "debate" and usually not a very friendly one. Often reminds me of the playground as a child. The "my God is bigger or better than your God" thing.

If it turns unfriendly it is because of comments like yours. Show me one unfriendly comment of mine in this thread. I believe your (plural) defensive on this topic imagines animosity where none is intended.

 

[asterisktom]

But Christ would not die for those for whom He would not pray. He does not intercede nor is He the Advocate of those He does not pray for or die for.

Exactly. This is the pertinent connection.

Often, to understand a topic, you have to (seemingly) go away from it a bit.

 

[Jim1999]

It is clear in scripture that Christ died for all, but instead of some. The death of Christ is sufficient for the sins of all, but efficacious for the elect.

One cannot take isolated verses to say otherwise, but must understand verses in context of the whole of scripture.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[olegig]

But what about the rest? What about fallen humanity, categories 2- 7?
Surely Christ died for all these. But a closer inquiry, with an open Bible, forces us to qualify even this.

But even without an open Bible, however, we can already ask this:
Why would Christ die for those who have already lived, died and are now in Hell?

And this would also raise the question as to why a man would question God when God says Christ died for ALL?

Just because the man does not understand the concept, cannot the man just believe it and wait on the Lord for understanding?

 

[Cypress]

It is clear in scripture that Christ died for all, but instead of some. The death of Christ is sufficient for the sins of all, but efficacious for the elect.

One cannot take isolated verses to say otherwise, but must understand verses in context of the whole of scripture.

Cheers,

Jim

It is efficacious for those who believe.

 

[Jerome]

But Christ would not die for those for whom He would not pray. He does not intercede nor is He the Advocate of those He does not pray for or die for.

Exactly.

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

 

[kyredneck]

Christ died for the children of Zion:

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4:26

1 A Psalm of the sons of Korah; a Song. His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2 Jehovah loveth the gates of Zion More than all the dwellings of Jacob.
3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. Ps 87

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54:1

Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken
[Old School Hymnal; 1964 edition]

Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken
Glorious things of thee are spoken,
Zion, city of our God!
He, Whose Word cannot be broken,
Formed thee for His own abode.
On the Rock of Ages founded,
What can shake thy sure repose?
With salvation’s walls surrounded,
Thou may’st smile at all thy foes.

See! the streams of living waters,
Springing from eternal love;
Well supply thy sons and daughters,
And all fear of want remove:
Who can faint while such a river
Ever flows their thirst t’assuage?
Grace, which like the Lord, the Giver,
Never fails from age to age.

Round each habitation hovering,
See the cloud and fire appear!
For a glory and a cov’ring
Showing that the Lord is near.
Thus deriving from our banner
Light by night and shade by day;
Safe they feed upon the manna
Which He gives them when they pray.

Blest inhabitants of Zion,
Washed in the Redeemer’s blood!
Jesus, Whom their souls rely on,
Makes them kings and priests to God.
’Tis His love His people raises,
Over self to reign as kings,
And as priests, His solemn praises
Each for a thank offering brings.

Savior, if of Zion’s city,
I through grace a member am,
Let the world deride or pity,
I will glory in Thy Name.
Fading is the worldling’s pleasure,
All his boasted pomp and show;
Solid joys and lasting treasure
None but Zion’s children know.


Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew [FROM ABOVE]. The wind bloweth where it will...........so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Jn 3:7,8

 

[kyredneck]

On another note:

... I love the Word of God and sharing it with others, getting encouragement.....

That's why I asked you to be my friend. You and I are exactly alike in that respect. As far as the encouragement thing goes, I suggest that you may be unrealistic if you expect any encouragement from a clique that exists on this board.

I am sick of debates - especially the ones here. .

I for one greatly appreciate your posts, and although I may not always provide comment, I DO read them, and they DO have their affect, and I'm certain I'm not the only one. Bear that in mind, don't get discouraged, just keep putting the Word out there. You never know what God's gonna do with it. It may be Tom's articulation of a certain truth that finally turns the light on for someone and odd's are you'll probably never know of it or be thanked for it. I believe many preachers experience discouragements simply because of our unmindfulness to stop and take the time to comment or thank them.. IMO, it would please 'the clique' well if you were to leave. I'm not fond of debates either, but, it IS a debate forum, you know.

 

[Tom Butler]

IMO, it would please 'the clique' well if you were to leave. I'm not fond of debates either, but, it IS a debate forum, you know.

What clique are you talking about? Who's in it?