Poll on Rapture Beliefs

[Essene]

Of course, the word "rapture" appears nowhere in the Scriptures. This concept was never heard of until Margaret Macdonald had her revelation in 1830 in Scotland.

Why so many people believe this is part of the Canon is beyond me. Jerry Jenkins and Tim LeHaye just keep taking the bucks to the bank. This is myth, not facts.

 

[HankD]

Greetings brother Mel.

There appears to have been millenialists and/or "rapturists" among the 16-17th century Jesuits.

Try a google on Francisco Ribera and Emmanuel Lacunza.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Of course, the word "rapture" appears nowhere in the Scriptures. This concept was never heard of until Margaret Macdonald had her revelation in 1830 in Scotland.

The root word comes out of the Latin Vulgate and the old itala before it.

HankD

 

[Ed Edwards]

Essene: //Of course, the word "rapture" appears nowhere in the Scriptures.//


The word 'rapture' DOES APPEAR in a Bible.
It just probably isn't in your English Bible.
I Thessalonians 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible
has has a Latin form of the
English: 'rapture', where we have 'caught up' in
our Enlgish Bibles. This Latin Vulgate Bible was
translated from Greek to Latin in like the 4th
century (301-400).

Essene about 'rapture': //This concept was never heard
of until Margaret Macdonald had her revelation in 1830
in Scotland.//

This is revisionist history which comes
from a 1960s movement
called 'post-tribulation premillinnialism'.
Before that, dating from the time of the Latin Vulgate,
the post-tribulation viewpoint came from
a-millinnialism. A-mill teaches that the milliniial
Messanic Kingdom is a spirtitual thing and has no
physcial meaning. Actual transcripts of what
Margaret Macdonald was 'revealed' are available;
these writings aren't even close to current pretrib
doctrine or Biblical pretrib doctrine.
BTW, all the pretribs I know take their doctrine
straigt from the Bible: the canon of which was fixed
in 325AD.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I recently learned that the "Rapture" concept is a rather new idea - first posited by an American named Darby about 200 years ago. If this is in fact true, does it not raise concerns that we have not heard of this concept from the Church Fathers, such as Luther, Augustine, Jerome, Ignatius, Origen, etc.?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The concept of the "rapture" has been in the Scriptures all along.

"caught up" is the greek word "harpazo" (snatch away) which was translated as one of the several old Latin words ot the itala Bible (2nd century) begining with "Rap..." rapto, rapturo, etc around the second century then made it's way into the vulgate.

The debate is over when we will meet Him "in the air" in the scenario of the final judgement of the world.

... </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother HankD -- Preach it!

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Off topic here responses will be addressed
ON TOPIC at:

Do you believe in the rapture? (Page 7)

In this thread, Ed feels that God has given him the right to question my salvation twice because I don't agree with his theory that there will be 5 judgements (and perhaps as many as 24) in the end times. This is against Baptist Board policy and unChristian.

Ed, won't you please abstain from this behavior, ask God to forgive you and examine your own relationship with our Savior tonight before it's too late?

 

[Ed Edwards]

I'm sorry you think i've questioned your salvation.
I have no right to question anybodys salvation
for this is judgmental and I will be judged in the
same manner that I judge.

 

[blackbird]

***Moderator's note***

Please take care of personal problems between posters via PM

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Keith M:
I voted for a pre-trib rapture because that is the one theory that is best supported by Scripture in its entirety. The other views can be supported by quoting a verse here and there, but when everything is put together and Scripture taken in its entirety none of the other positions make sense IMHO.

As Ed Edwards would say: Tee Hee!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Linda64:
I responded pre-tribulation rapture of the church because I believe the Bible teaches it.

Amen, Sister Linda64 -- you are RIGHT ON!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Keith M:
I voted for a pre-trib rapture because that is the one theory that is best supported by Scripture in its entirety. The other views can be supported by quoting a verse here and there, but when everything is put together and Scripture taken in its entirety none of the other positions make sense IMHO.

Amen, Brother Keith M - Preach it!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I stand firmly on the Pre-Trib Rapture. What a glorious day that will be!

 

[Linda64]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Linda64,

I'm posttrib. You saying, you believe in pretrib, because the Bible teaches it.

Scriptures please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

First of all, you need to differentiate the church from Israel. Israel is not the church and the church is not Israel. When you apply all the scripture in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 to the church, you will come up with the church being here during the tribulation. The Olivet Discourse in those chapters is referring to Israel, not the church.

The Gospels were written during the dispensation of the Law--before the church was empowered at Pentecost (Acts 2). The only time the church is mentioned in the gospels is in Matthew 16:18 and in Matthew 18:17. In Mt 16:18, Christ said he would build His church. He began building the church during His earthly ministry. Mt 18:17 implies that the church already existed during Christ's earthly ministry. He was speaking of church discipline. The church, however, was not empowered at that point. That happened at Pentecost.

The Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) refer to ISRAEL , not the CHURCH .

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matthew 24:1-3)

Jesus was speaking to His disciples--His disciples were not inquiring about the Church, they were asking Jesus about the sign of His Second Coming and the end of the age. This has NOTHING to do with the Church.


*******************

Paul's first epistle to the CHURCH at Thessalonica

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

Paul's first epistle to the CHURCH at Corinth.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. (1 Corinthians 15:51-58)

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. ( 1 Thessalonians 4:18) --Where is the comfort if the church is to go through the tribulation?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
I stand firmly on the Pre-Trib Rapture. What a glorious day that will be!

Amen, Brother StandingfirminChrist -- Preach it!

 

[partialrapture]

I voted other. I am in agreement with most of my Baptist brethren "Pre-Trib", but there will also be a post-tribulation rapture.

 

[Me4Him]

I voted "Pre trib", not because of what I "BELIEVE", but what I can "PROVE".

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3398.html?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it!

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Essene: //Of course, the word "rapture" appears nowhere in the Scriptures.//


The word 'rapture' DOES APPEAR in a Bible.
It just probably isn't in your English Bible.
I Thessalonians 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible
has has a Latin form of the
English: 'rapture', where we have 'caught up' in
our Enlgish Bibles. This Latin Vulgate Bible was
translated from Greek to Latin in like the 4th
century (301-400).

Essene about 'rapture': //This concept was never heard
of until Margaret Macdonald had her revelation in 1830
in Scotland.//

This is revisionist history which comes
from a 1960s movement
called 'post-tribulation premillinnialism'.
Before that, dating from the time of the Latin Vulgate,
the post-tribulation viewpoint came from
a-millinnialism. A-mill teaches that the milliniial
Messanic Kingdom is a spirtitual thing and has no
physcial meaning. Actual transcripts of what
Margaret Macdonald was 'revealed' are available;
these writings aren't even close to current pretrib
doctrine or Biblical pretrib doctrine.
BTW, all the pretribs I know take their doctrine
straigt from the Bible: the canon of which was fixed
in 325AD.

Both the Vulgate Bible and the 1611 Authorized King James Bible included the Apachrapha. How can you say that the cannon was fixed in 325 AD? In fact the most recent version of the Catholic (Vulgate) still includes the Apachrapha so there is no common definition today.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
I voted "Pre trib", not because of what I "BELIEVE", but what I can "PROVE".

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3398.html?

You can't prove the pretrib rapture from Scripture, no one can because it is not in there.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Personally, I don't think among Christians there is any question there will be a rapture in terms of the living being caught "up" into heaven. (I say "up" because I don't believe there's any real proof that Heaven is up rather than right beside us in another dimension for instance.) Everyone has to stand in front of Christ for the Judgement. The question is whether there will be a literal tribulation and millenium preceeded by the rapture of the saints.

Personally, I say no. There is very limited support for a pre-trib rapture in the Bible and the entire book of Revelation should, in my opinion, be interpreted as symbolism rather than taken literally.