Poll on Rapture Beliefs

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
I voted "Pre trib", not because of what I "BELIEVE", but what I can "PROVE".

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3398.html?

You can't prove the pretrib rapture from Scripture, no one can because it is not in there. </font>[/QUOTE]MERCY, as much as you and I have discussed this, I "figured" for sure, you would have learned "Something" new by now.

Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Da 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Did Jesus "lie"???

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:

Personally, I say no. There is very limited support for a pre-trib rapture in the Bible and the entire book of Revelation should, in my opinion, be interpreted as symbolism rather than taken literally.

"SYMBOLS" represents "THINGS", they are another "NAME" for "THINGS" on the earth.

And the trib is "literal", even Satan manifested "IN THE FLESH" (son of predition) just as God was "IN THE FLESH". (Son of God)

Support for a "pre trib rapture" is "limited" only by "knowledge/understanding" of the scriptures.

 

[Benjamin]

Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it .

Da 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Did Jesus "lie"???

Nope, He didn’t! And He straightened Peter out about that rock that will be built upon.

The verse of Matthew 16:18 that you short quoted refers to Peter’s belief upon the Rock, a few verses later Peter was reprimanded because he didn’t want Jesus to suffer or be killed and this is what Jesus said to “ him ” :

(Mat 16:23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

(Mat 16:24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

(Mat 16:25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

(Mat 16:26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

(Mat 16:27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

A little more about that Rock that the SPIRITUAL (not natural) is build upon that you attempt to separate through dispensationalism to "prove" pre-trib.


(1Co 10:1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

(1Co 10:2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

(1Co 10:3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

(1Co 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Support for a "pre trib rapture" is "limited" only by "knowledge/understanding" of the dispensational teachings of men.

One more rock lesson:

(Luk 8:13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away .

 

[Benjamin]

Oh, I voted “other” I find a lot of different variances within each and have a lot of issues with the teachings, tactics of some especially the force to fit doctrine that doesn’t add up.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it .

Da 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Did Jesus "lie"???

Nope, He didn’t! And He straightened Peter out about that rock that will be built upon.


Support for a "pre trib rapture" is "limited" only by "knowledge/understanding" of the dispensational teachings of men.

[/QB]

About the only difference between your belief and Israel's belief, is that you believe Jesus is the Messiah, they don't,

other than that, neither you or Israel believe God's method of "leadership" has "Changed" with different "Dispensations".

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

I'd suggest looking up the definition of "dispensation".

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Linda64:

Jesus was speaking to His disciples--His disciples were not inquiring about the Church, they were asking Jesus about the sign of His Second Coming and the end of the age.

His disciples were the Church!

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I voted Pre-Trib. I'm leaving on the first flight some of you can wait til later if you like.

 

[HankD]

Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Da 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

You forgot to put Daniel 7:21 in it's proper context (the very next verse):

Daniel 7:22
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

A war is often made up of a series of battles.
A war can be won after losing all the battles, up until the last battle.

I personally do make a distinction between Israel and the Church.

HankD

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Linda64,

I'm back. You mentioned on Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are for Israel, these are not for the Church.

The problem for pretribs on these passages. These passages never saying these are for 'Jews' only, or, for 'Israel' only either.

In Matthew 24, Christ told them, 'ye', 'you' find about 19 times in that context. Obivously, He was spoken toward us as we are his dsicples. His disciples(12 followers) are the part of the Church.

Often, pretribs citied Matt. 24:36,42 both are apply to us as church, that we are commnaded to watch and be ready for His coming. I agree with them. But, pretrib's bad habit of its interpreting Matthew 24, by pick a verse out of its context. Whole context of Matthew 24 was given message to the believers, that we ought take heed and keep His word.

Pretribs saying, 'elect' of Matt. 24:31 is speak apply to Israel only. But, Christ doesn't saying it. Elect is not limited to Jews only, also, include Gentiles as well. Christ died on the cross for the whole world.

Pretrib have a serious problem with Matthew 24. There is not a single verse find anywhere in this passage saying that Christ shall come again before tribulation.

Matt 24:29-31 is might the clearest proof of the Scripture, that this telling us, Christ shall come again right after tribulation is a posttribulational. Ed Edwards KNOWS it! Yet, Ed keeps on separtating verse 31 from Matt. 24:29-30, and he saying verse 31 is a "pretrib rapture". He didn't follow the hermenuetuc rule- 'Intepreteing in Contextually'.

Also, both 1 Thess. 4:15-17 and Matt. 24:30-31 both are the mostly clearest parallel fit together talking about Christ's coming.

If you think, 1 Thess. 4:15-17 is not fit with Matt. 24:29-31. The question is, how does Apostle Paul received the words of 1 Thess. 4:15-17 comes from?

1 Thess. 4:15 says, "For this we say unto you BY the word of the Lord..." Paul received the word from the Lord. How? By through the revelation. In Gal. 1:12 says, "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but BY the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Revelation means, supercommunicate between God and man.

Same with the book of Revelation. John, the Beloved, received the words as he written the book of Revelation, by through the visions, also through supercommunicate with God & angel while he was moved by the Holy Spirit.

So, my point is, Apostle Paul received the words from Jesus Christ while he was in the desert for 3 years - Gal. 1:17-18, was taught by Jesus Christ on the doctrines. That how Paul received the words from Lord on 1 Thess. 4:15-17 about the coming.

There are 9 lists of the comparison between Matthew 24:30 & 1 Thess. 4:15-17 both are fit together so beautifully. These 9 lists are shown:

1. Coming - Matt. 24:30
1. Coming - 1 Thess. 4:15

2. clouds - Matt. 24:30
2. clouds - 1 Thess. 4:17

3. heaven - Matt. 24:30
3. heaven - 1 Thess. 4:16

4. angels - Matt. 24:31
4. archangel -1 Thess. 4:16(clear in 2 Thess. 1:7)

5. sound - Matt. 24:31
5. shout - 1 Thess. 4:16

6. trumpet - Matt. 24:31
6. trump - 1 Thess. 4:16

7. together - Matt. 24:31
7. together - 1 Thess. 4:17

8. elect- Matt. 24:31
8. in Christ - 1 Thess. 4:16

9. winds - Matt. 24:31
9. air - 1 Thess. 4:17

Both are so very clear fit together.

Apostle Paul taught only ONE future coming. There is no hint find anywhere in his 13 epistles saying that that there will be two comings.

Neither, Christ teaches two comings find anywhere in the four gospels. Clearly, Christ taught only one future coming at the end of the age. Simple and plain.

So, you do really need a solid very clear verse, where in the Bible saying that Christ shall come again before tribulation to support pretribulationism doctrine.

Have a nice day! God bless you.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

HankD,

I ask you, who are saints of Daniel 7:22? Aren't the saints same mean as Christians?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
I voted Pre-Trib. I'm leaving on the first flight some of you can wait til later if you like.

Amen, Brother Plain Old Bill -- Preach it!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come
13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come

 

[HankD]

DeafPosttrib asks

I ask you, who are saints of Daniel 7:22? Aren't the saints same mean as Christians?

Normally I distinguish between Israel, saved Israel and the church. Seeing that the word "saints" is used in this generic way it could be either IMO.

I believe the twenty-four elders mentioned several times in the Book of the Revelation represent saved Israel and the church united before the throne of God.

But in reality it doesn't matter because the precept is the same. There is saved Israel, there is the church, in both bodies individuals are called "saints" (different languages of course).

This is/was my main point:

A war is usually made up of a series of battles.
The enemy may prevail in some, many or even all the battles except the last one and not ultimately prevail in the war itself but lose it all in the final battle.

HankD

 

[Mel Miller]

HankD,

I am curious as to why you are still "undecided"
regarding the time of the Rapture.

Mel Miller

 

[Ed Edwards]

Undecided is the second most popular vote:

Poll Results: Poll on Rapture Beliefs (79 votes.)
Poll on Rapture Beliefs
Choose 1
(Posted in % order: most to least:

Pre-tribulation rapture ---------------------------- 46% (36) XXXX
I am not premillennial/ do not believe in a rapture--- 20% (16) XX
Other (please define) ------------------------------ 15% (12) X
Post-tribulation rapture ---------------------------- 13% (10) X
Pre-wrath rapture ---------------------------------- 05% (04) .
Mid-tribulation rapture (or mid-70th week) ---------- 01% (01) .

 

[EdSutton]

Plain Old Bill- I loved your response. Regardless of what my own views may be, that is classic.
Just read this whole thread- For someone, I don't remember who, who spoke of the founding of 'Southern' and the 'Abstract', and those who responded to it, what does that have to do with anything? Because Drs. Boyce, Broaddus, Manly, and/or Williams believed someting to be true is no more relevant than if Ed E, Mel M, HankD, and/or DeafPosttrib (the last four posters on this thread) do not.
Ed