POLL: Prophecy

Ken this statement is so true. And though I may not agree with someones escholotogical view they are still my brothers and sisters in Christ. Far too many Christians take their view so seriously that they use it as a means of fellowship.

I have a man in my church that comes for the singing but leaves every Sunday right before I share the message. His reason for leaving is that he is a preterist and I am premillenial. He won't even stay when the message has nothing to do with eschatology. He is so convinced his view is right he has even made statements that other views of eschatology present a different Jesus. It is sad to see a person be so consumed by their eschatology that they warp their view of other Christians.

Bro Tony

 

It has to be known by many more names. If it were only known by one name then it would only be mentioned once.

I see what the problem is. One is combining “the rapture” with the “resurrection” and saying they are the same event. Well, if one says that “the rapture” comes at a time when ALL shall be resurrected at the end of the age, in plain sight of all, and that this is after all tribulations and millennial kingdoms have ended then, yes, you may have a good case to say that rapture and resurrection are synonymous.

Matthew 24:31-44

Coming of Christ but not secret. Doesn’t refer to “rapture” or resurrection; only to coming of Christ.

Mark 13

Refers to tribulation and Coming of Christ. Doesn’t refer to “secret rapture” but does state that the “elect” will be a apart of the tribulation.

Luke 21

No rapture mentioned in this passage. And the description of the tribulation points to a 1st century timeframe.

John 14:1-3

No mention of a rapture here either. The Coming of Christ appears to be mentioned though.

Romans 8:19

Nope.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8,

Nope

15:51-53,

Refers to resurrection, but not secret rapture.

16:22

No.

Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5

Refers to resurrection, not secret rapture.

Colossians 3:4

Nope.

1 Thessalonians 1:10,

Nope

2:19,

Second coming, but no rapture mentioned.

4:13-18,

This is THE “rapture” passage. It does not refer to a secret rapture but to the resurrection. Also, it gives evidence for “soul sleep” as the intermediate state.

5:9,23

No.

2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3

No, no, no.

1 Timothy 6:14

No.

2 Timothy 4:1,8

No.

Hebrews 9:28

No.

1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4

No. No. No.

1 John 2:28-3:2

Nope.

Jude 1:21

No.

Revelation 2:25

No.

With these verses which mostly refer to Christ’s one and only Second Coming, one is left with the idea that no secret “rapture” is indicated, no multiple return of Christ is even suggested, the great tribulation was a first century event, and the “rapture” will be the resurrection of the body at the end of the “millennial” kingdom (Rev. 20:4-6). I am more sure of my position having re-read these verses in aggregate then I was before.

 

Anleifr: "We must ask ourselves who the “you” of the
Matt 25:15-28 passage refers to. Does it not originally
refer to the disciples and, by extension, the
followers of Jesus, i.e. all believers?"

"You here refers to all humans. All we humans have
been given talents to serve the Lord. Some use them
to serve the Lord, they will be rewared; some people
use them not for the Lord, they will be dammed
to outer darkness.

Anleifr: //The Bible everywhere indicates that the church (i.e., believers, followers of Christ, saints, holy ones, the elect, Christians) will be a part of the “great tribulation.” //

Amen, Brother Anleifr -- Preach it!
You do understand there are two groups of
followers of Christ between now and the second coming:
Born-again redeemed mostly gentile Chrsitian elect saints
who will be raptured at the beginning of the
Tribulation 7-year-day AND Jewish Israeli elect
saints saved at mid-tribulation-day by believing
Jesus as Messiah. Likewise the same two sets
of holy ones. Unfortunarely most lost Jews today do not
care for the Greek term "Christ" for millions of them
have been tortured and killed in that name.
("Christ" means "chosen one of God"). These lost
Jews like the word "Messiah" a Hebrew term meaning
"chose one of God". So we really can't call those saved
in the midst of the Tribulation Day by the evil
term "Christ".


Anieifr: //I see what the problem is. One is combining “the rapture” with the “resurrection” and saying they are the same event.//

I love it! No matter what you do or say, someone will
be offended by it. Well I gotta be careful:

1 Corinthians 8:13 ;(HCSB, The Holman Christian Standard Bible):
Therefore, if food causes my brother to fall,
I will never again eat meat, so that I won't
cause my brother to fall.

But the burden is on you to show you are actually fallen.

1 Th 4:15-17 (KJV1611):
For this we say vnto you by the word of the Lord,
That we which are aliue and remaine vnto the
comming of the Lord, shall not preuent
them which are asleepe.
16 For the Lord himselfe shall descend from
heauen with a shout, with the voyce of the Archangel,
and with the trumpe of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first.
17 Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe
caught vp together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the aire: and so shall
wee euer bee with the Lord.

A rapture always follows shortly after a resurrection.
Not all resurrections are followed by a rapture.
I always use "rapture/resurrection" to remind us that
a rapture always follows a resurrection.

If this has caused you to fall from grace, forgive me.
But i've been arguing these matters for years and
a large majority of people prefer to be reminded of
the resurrection that imediately preceeds the rapture.

Anleifr: //Matthew 24:31-44

Coming of Christ but not secret. Doesn’t refer to “rapture” or resurrection; only to coming of Christ.//

Refers to "gathering" which i said means the same
thing as "rapture/resurrection".

see my post on Matthew 24.
BTW, you can search this whole board and never find
anybody who is pretrib mentioning a "secret rapture"
save in response to a non-pretrib bringind it up.
Try to follow the discussion and debate what
we are debating not what others are debating. Thank
you for your kind consideration.

 

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

Romans 8:18-19: (HCSB):

For I consider that the sufferings of this present
time are not worth comparing with the glory that
is going to be revealed to us.
19 For the creation
eagerly waits with anticipation for God's sons
to be revealed.

We will be glorified in Christ at the
rapture/resurrection. The "eagerly waits with
anticipations" is about the rapture/resurrection.

As for the coming of the Lord in power and glory
to destroy the antichrist and set up the millinnial
kingdom, folks won't like that:

Matthew 24:30 (HCSB):
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,
and then all the tribes of the land will mourn;
and they will see the Son of Man coming
on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The scriptures i mention do speak of the
OPEN COMING of Jesus to get His people:
the rapture/resurrection. I don't have time to
go through them tonight. There are dozens of
topics here where they are discussed.

 

Only fifteen people believe the ancient and honorable doctrine of the post-tribulation doctrine.

Lady Eagle, it would be interesting to do a poll and determine the geographic locations of those who do not believe the post-tribulation doctrine. I believe that the English sold us a pig in a poke with that doctrine, although it made Tim LaHaye (he is so dull to listen to) as rich as Bill Gates (well, almost).

 

Only 58% of the responders believe the Biblical
doctrine of the pretribulation rapture - hummm.

Where did i put my history of the development
of the post-tribulation only
rapture theory. It only covers the 20th century

 

Ed, what is wrong down there in the Indian Nation? I can dig out earlier references than the 20th century without much work. For one thing, Martin Luther thought that he was in the Great Tribulation because he thought that the Pope was the antichrist--it turns out that the Pope was merely an antichrist. However, Luther was correct that the antichrist will likely be the Pope since the Pope is a head of state and therefore a political figure.

 

CMG
Luther (and you as well) ought to learn to actually hold to Sola Scriptura for a change. To even be an Antichrist (let alone the Antichrist) one needs to hold to 2 heretical doctrines no pope has ever believed in. Docetism and denying Jezus is the Messiah.

 

Which is also why an Islamic A/C would be a good fit.
CMG;
The Ayatolla Khomeni was also a cleric and a political figure.

Just thinking out loud here.

In HIS service;
Jim

Now some wise-acre will say, "Jim... don't think!"
LOL

 

Sure, Jim, it could be a Moslem--they are all antichrists.

Mioque, you always give the Catholic Church a pass. When the Pope puts out an order to have you murdered, he is an antichrist. As for not holding orthodox doctrines, the current Pope is a Maryist and may well believe that the Virgin Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus--in which case one could debate successfully that the Pope worships another Jesus--not the one of The Holy Bible. The Vatican doctrine of justification is already anti-Christian according to theologians such as R.C. Sproul because it is a merit theology.

Catholicism is a liberal theology, perhaps an apostate theology. It should be viewed in the harshest daylight for the failure of the Vatican to reform for the last 500 years.

 

CMG

"When the Pope puts out an order to have you murdered, he is an antichrist."
"
Well no, that makes him a murderer, not an antichrist (who is a specific kind of false teacher according to John's letters in the bible).

"the current Pope is a Maryist"
"
That's the wrong type of false doctrine. John was rather specific in these old letters. Docetism and/ or denying Jezus his Messiahhood is what makes you an Antichrist.

"Catholicism is a liberal theology"
"
That same thing could be said about the form of Dispensationalism that most posters on this poll apparently endorse.

 

Sorry about that. I mistyped. I meant 24:15-28. Does it not originally
refer to the disciples and, by extension, the followers of Jesus, i.e. all believers?"

I have never been convinced that a “rapture” occurs before the “Great Tribulation.” I have never been convinced of any of these “tribulation week” scenarios. Why? I have never seen Scriptural evidence for it.

The Greek of Matthew 24:23-24 uses the word “Christ”, (christos), not Messiah. I do not think it really matters, but if “Christ” is not acceptable to Jews and this passage refers to elect Jews during the “tribulation” then Jesus is using the wrong term.

I hope you do not think that I am offended. Certainly I am not offended by a different theological opinion other than my own. Certainly not! I was just trying to understand your perspective about the rapture/resurrection event(s). I encounter a variety of opinions about the faith everyday and I love it. I frankly do not care what one’s belief is about the “end times”. As long as one believes that Christ will come then I really do not have a big deal about the particular scenarios of that coming.

Sorry. Not quite sure what you’re getting at.

Fall from grace? Not likely. But I do appreciate you concern. No, Southern Baptists have never (usually) made eschatology a factor of breaking fellowship and I wholeheartedly agree with that S. Baptist tradition.

Yes, I now know that's what you mean.

I didn’t think we were debating. I just thought we were giving opinions of a poll. Anyway, I use the term “secret rapture” to distinguish it from the caught-up/rapture of 1 Thess. I actually do not use the term “rapture” at all because I do not think the term is either Scriptural nor adequately conveys a Scriptural idea in today’s conservative evangelical culture. I prefer to use the term “resurrection” but differentiate it from the “caught-up” of Thess.

Because 42% do not think that the pre-tribulation rapture of the church is a Biblical doctrine. Post-trib theories have been around since the church fathers. Pre-trib rapture theories, however, have only been around since the mid-1800s. However, you are correct that post-trib rapture theories have only been around since the 20th century. Rapture theories in general have only been around since the 19th century.

 

I believe in the Midweek, Pretribulational Rapture of the Church.

The Anti-Christ will be the King of the North, and is the 7th King/Head of Satan and 11th Horn on the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 and the little horn of Daniel 8. Read the chapters of Daniel 2,7,8 and 11.

The False Prophet is most likely the resurrected Judas Iscariot, called "a devil" and "the son of perdition" by Jesus Himself. Read John 6, 17; Zechariah 11 and Ezekiel 21:25.

The Rapture of the Church (The Body of Christ) will happen at the invasion of Jerusalem by the Anti-Christ at NOON which will occur early in the 4th Year of the 70th Week. It will happen at the invasion of Jerusalem by the Anti-Christ at NOON, and after that all hell break loose. Read Jeremiah 6 and 15, and many other OT Scriptures which state this invasion of Jerusalem and it start the Day of the LORD.

The Great Tribulation Period spoken by the LORD Jesus Christ start at the Abomination of Desolation. It will happen when Satan was cast into the earth and enter into the dead body of the Anti-Christ killed by Lord Jesus Himself, and resurrect it and then appear to the whole world on an UFO landing on Mount of Olives and then going into the Jewish Temple and declare "I am God". Then the great persecution of the Jews started after that.

The events of Revelation 6-19 started at the Invasion of Jerusalem by the Anti-Christ in the 4th Year of the 70th Week and will last for 3 1/2-4 years.

Deafmidweeker

 

Is that Jerusalem time or Mountain West time?

 

Mioque, you will have to explain this to me in more detail. You wrote, "That's the wrong type of false doctrine. John was rather specific in these old letters. Docetism and/ or denying Jezus his Messiahhood is what makes you an Antichrist."

If you say that the Virgin Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus, haven't you in effect compromised the doctrine of Christ?

 

Deafmidweeker,

Are you deaf? I glad that you just join baptistboard.

I have two simple questions for you:

Please show me where a verse in the Bible saying Christ shall come before tribulation?

Please show me where a verse in the Bible saying Rapture shall be occur 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!