Poll: Real Wine in Communion

[Helen]

Originally posted by Alcott:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:
I disagree the all Baptists come from John the Baptist. This is a weak leak in the arguement for grape juice only at the Lord's Table. He was dead before the first Lord's Table as well.

If he had been alive, he could not have drank from the cup-- whether it had become noticeably fermented or not-- since a Nazarite was never to so much as touch a grape (besides never allowing a razor to touch his hair and never touching a dead body) [Numbers 6]. </font>[/QUOTE]1. Jesus was not a Nazrite.
2. Neither are we.

 

[natters]

From http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/114/53.0.html :

"As teetotalism continued to grow [in the 1800s], and as some Bible commentators even interpreted the "wine" of Scripture as an unfermented drink, it was not long before grape juice replaced wine in many Baptist, Presbyterian, Disciples, Mennonite, and other evangelical churches."

From Calvary Baptist Church (http://www.geocities.com/cbc1865/lordsupper.html) :

"One of the members of the Temperance Movement was a doctor and dentist named Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch. Grape juice was invented in 1869, when Dr. Welch developed a method for pasteurizing grape juice in his home in Vineland, NJ using the concepts developed by Dr. Louis Pasteur. He processed the first bottles of “unfermented wine.” His goal was to produce an alcohol-free wine or "unfermented sacramental wine" to be used at communion in the Vineland Methodist Episcopal Church where he was a steward. Dr. Welch was sparked into action by an unruly visitor to his home, who went to church with Dr. Welch, partook of the communion wine at church services but didn't stop drinking just the religious imbibing. He kept on drinking, and became rowdy. Dr. Welch who was a strict prohibitionist who preached temperance decided right then that a nonalcoholic wine was needed. So he began his experiments. In addition, the city of Vineland had laws against the consumption of alcohol. Unfortunately after he invented his grape juice, his fellow parishioners saw no need to do away with the traditional wine, and the "Dr. Welch's Unfermented Wine" was a failure. Churches at first were reluctant to deviate from tradition. From 1869 to 1872, Dr. Welch produced a limited amount of unfermented wine for churches in southern New Jersey and southeast Pennsylvania...finally in 1865, he came to Vineland. In Vineland, there was a law against the sale of liquor and there were many churches. Many of the churches needed wine for their religious ceremonies. Dr. Welch solved the problem by coming up with the idea of preserving grape juice without fermenting it, hence alcohol free...Dr. Charles Welch was an enterprising Methodist layman. He marketed the pasteurized grape juice to temperance-minded evangelical Protestants as authentic biblical "wine." As word spread and as the temperance movement grew among evangelical Protestant churches, Welch left dentistry and produced Welch's Grape Juice commercially."

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by C4K:
Before refrigeration how did Baptist churches keep grape juice fresh and unfermented for the Lord's Table?

Does grape juice not naturally ferment if it is not kept cool?

From the Welch's FAQ:

How long can you store an opened bottle of Welch's juice in the refrigerator?

Welch's 100% juices and juice cocktails do not contain preservatives, so they must be refrigerated after opening. An opened bottle should be consumed in seven to 10 days.

Even a pasteurized product like Welch's is prone to ferment quickly -- even in a modern refrigerated environment.

 

[LadyEagle]

WELL! Here's a concept that hasn't been discussed. How did they preserve grape juice without it fermenting????

Alcohol/Wine: What are the historical and scriptural facts about fermented drinks in the Bible?
It is commonly supposed that in Bible times, all preserved grape juice inevitably fermented, thus many assume that all mention of "wine" in the Bible refers to the alcoholic beverage commonly called "wine" today. However, ancient civilizations had several ways of protecting fruits and fruit juices from fermentation, and thus of having non-alcoholic wine throughout the year.

Boiling the grape (or other fruit) juice and reducing it to a syrup that could then be diluted
Boiling the juice with minimum evaporation and sealing it airtight with beeswax (anaerobically) in jars.
Drying the fruit in the sun, and then reconstituting it to use the fluid for wine.
Filtration to exclude gluten.
Addition of sulphur to the fruit juice, a process that prevents fermentation.
All these methods of preservation were known to the ancients, who also practiced boiling fermented juice to eliminate the alcohol. Referring to the first method of preparation, Aristotle (b. 384 B.C.) wrote "The wine of Arcadia was so thick that it was necessary to scrape it from the skin bottles in which it was contained, and to dissolve the scrapings in water." Nott's Lectures on Biblical Temperance, p. 80.

The poet Horace (65 B.C.) wrote, "There is no wine sweeter to drink than that of Lesbos; it was like nectar, … and would not produce intoxication."

"The Mishna states that the Jews were in the habit of drinking boiled wine" (Kitto's Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature, vol. 2, p. 447). Naturally this wine would be entirely alcohol-free as a result of the boiling, if not also from the manner of preservation.

"Albert Barnes, D. D., [Presbyterian] in his commentary on Jn. 2:10, wrote: "The wine of Judea was the pure juice of the grape, without any mixture of alcohol. It was the common drink of the people and did not produce intoxication."

Adam Clarke [Methodist] in his famous Bible Commentary wrote in reference to Gen. 40:11: "From this we find that wine anciently was the mere expressed juice of the grape without fermentation. The saky, or cupbearer, took the bunch [of grapes], pressed the juice into the cup, and instantly delivered it into the hands of his master. This was anciently the yayin of the Hebrews, the oinos of the Greeks, and the mustum of the ancient Latins." Clarke's historic note accords with the Scripture that declares "… the new wine is found in the cluster and one says Hurt not the wine when it is in the cluster, for there is a blessing in it." Isa. 65:8.

http://en.bibleinfo.com/questions/question.html?id=716

That would seem to shoot the old, it-must-have-been-fermented-wine-because-they-didn't-have refrigeration argument in the foot.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Okay, but didn't they use streams and caves for a type of refrigeration in ancient times? If so, that would help to halt the fermenting process.

No. Storage caves were used to store foodstuffs, but such storage caves 2000+ years ago were typically for wealthy and elite.

The interior temperature of such caves were sufficient to slow the fermentation process, but not stop it. In fact, this process of regulating fermentation resulted in better quality wine than uncontrolled fermentation. That method of regulating fermentation via temperature control is still in use by winemakers today.

In short, the average Jew of Jesus' day did not have access to cooling facilities such as these.

And what is the difference between new wine and old wine?

New wine is generally considered to be freshly pressed juice. New wine was not considered favorable or of value. In fact, Jesus comments in scripture about the dangers of pouring new wine into old wineskins (new wine must be poured into new wineskins, because old wineskins would 1-render the wine bitter, and 2- burst while the new wine underwent the fermenting process.

And what about wine mixed with water?

That was a no-no. It would have been considered rude to serve someone wine mixed with water.

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by Helen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Alcott:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:
I disagree the all Baptists come from John the Baptist. This is a weak leak in the arguement for grape juice only at the Lord's Table. He was dead before the first Lord's Table as well.

If he had been alive, he could not have drank from the cup-- whether it had become noticeably fermented or not-- since a Nazarite was never to so much as touch a grape (besides never allowing a razor to touch his hair and never touching a dead body) [Numbers 6]. </font>[/QUOTE]1. Jesus was not a Nazrite.
2. Neither are we. </font>[/QUOTE]Helen, the quote was about John the Baptist, who had taken the Nazarite vow.

 

[JamieinNH]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
That would seem to shoot the old, it-must-have-been-fermented-wine-because-they-didn't-have refrigeration argument in the foot.

Although these processes would work, you have to remember that Water was not found everywhere, and a great deal of it was contaminated.

So yes, you could dry things in the sun, or boil them down to be added to something, supposely water, later, but at the rate people drink, I would think it wouldn't be a good arguement to say this is the way they did it so there!

This just offers another possiblity, of which we already have many of.... It doesn't "clear" things up or help either side of the debate.

BTW, what happened to the copyright rules? Not posting the entire article etc etc.....?

Jamie

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Helen, the quote was about John the Baptist, who had taken the Nazarite vow. [/QB]

Yup, I know. And it has nothing to do with us now -- that was my point.

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by JamieinNH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LadyEagle:
That would seem to shoot the old, it-must-have-been-fermented-wine-because-they-didn't-have refrigeration argument in the foot.

Although these processes would work, you have to remember that Water was not found everywhere, and a great deal of it was contaminated.

So yes, you could dry things in the sun, or boil them down to be added to something, supposely water, later, but at the rate people drink, I would think it wouldn't be a good arguement to say this is the way they did it so there!

This just offers another possiblity, of which we already have many of.... It doesn't "clear" things up or help either side of the debate.

BTW, what happened to the copyright rules? Not posting the entire article etc etc.....?

Jamie </font>[/QUOTE]There was plenty of fresh water in Jerusalem:

http://holylandphotos.org/browse.asp?s=1,2,6,19,99

And, yes, I goofed about the copyright laws.

 

[LadyEagle]

Well, so far, out of the Baptists voting in the poll, 100% of the Baptists report that wine is not offered as a choice for communion service.

The question begs to be asked then, if it is true that most Baptists served real wine before prohibition (even though I've yet to see any sources proving that premise from historical Baptist documents), but IF that is true, and IF it is true that the early church served real wine & not grape juice, then we can only conclude that Baptist churches today are not true NT churches or they would be serving real wine. So, if Baptists don't have that right, what else do we have wrong?

Why are we following the traditions of men?

 

[natters]

Well, I'm not sure simply serving juice instead of wine would disqualify a church from being "true NT churches". For example, Christ passed around a single cup to share and a single loaf of bread to break, instead of giving each person a thumble-sized glass and a fraction of a pre-packaged cracker. But yes, I think Baptists today are different than Baptists of 150 years ago, let alone "true NT churches", on several issues.

 

[partialrapture]

whats a winepress?
a place where grapes are made in to juice
wine can be fermented
wine can also be unfermented
look in the older dictionaries (websters 1913)
sadly most are driven by lust

unfermented wine:
Isa 65:8 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

fermented wine:
Proverbs 20:1 ¶ Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Is Jesus a KING?
Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

well then if wine in the bible is only fermented then Jesus sinned... God forbid. There must be two different wines in the bible.
and Jesus glady drank the one with the blessing in it found i the cluster.

May God bless his word in your hearts

 

[LadyEagle]

Thank you, partialrapture.

 

[natters]

partialrapture, why is it not for kings? The next verse tells us: "Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted." This only happens once one reaches the point of drunkeness. If verse 4 means it's a sin for a king to have a glass of wine, then verse 6 means it's a sin to NOT give a glass of wine to the dying and the sad. Are you willing to be that consistent?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Linda64:
This may be a "turn off" for those who say the Bible permits the "moderate" use of beverage alcohol and that drunkenness is the sin, and not the drinking itself. However, facts are facts and you need to do the research objectively, not subjectively.

It is impossible to make unfermented wine. Grape juice starts to spoil in warm weather as soon as the grapes are harvested and squeezed. Grapes will rot by themselves. The only way that grape juice would not rot is if it contained an enormous amount of sugar much greater than jam.

Folks who write those articles have an axe to grind and it is not the truth.

I have never read where one of the proponents of unfermented wine was ever able to produce that product. If it does not turn to wine it does turn to vinegar.

 

[partialrapture]

naters not if wine is also defined as an unfermented juice

do some research gb93433
its not hard to find at all...

May God bless

 

[JamieinNH]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Well, so far, out of the Baptists voting in the poll, 100% of the Baptists report that wine is not offered as a choice for communion service.

The question begs to be asked then, if it is true that most Baptists served real wine before prohibition (even though I've yet to see any sources proving that premise from historical Baptist documents), but IF that is true, and IF it is true that the early church served real wine & not grape juice, then we can only conclude that Baptist churches today are not true NT churches or they would be serving real wine. So, if Baptists don't have that right, what else do we have wrong?

Why are we following the traditions of men?

Now, I am beginning to wonder if you really want answers, or do you have your mind made up already...


Either way, Here is a website that gives some reasons why the SBC stopped using wine.

http://www.brucesabin.com/alcohol.html

If you're looking for answers, this might help. If you've already made up your mind, then you will just cut this website somehow and keep moving along...


Jamie

 

[JamieinNH]

Originally posted by gb93433:


Folks who write those articles have an axe to grind and it is not the truth.

I have never read where one of the proponents of unfermented wine was ever able to produce that product. If it does not turn to wine it does turn to vinegar.

You have said a mouthful there! They do have an agenda, and their "research" leaves something to be desired.

It's also very strange that they haven't reproduced their theories. I mean, if they are true and accurate, then surely someone has saved "grape juice" without it becoming wine for a long period of time.

Even the student at MIT don't write papers until they have tested their theroy.

Oh well..

Jamie

 

[natters]

partialrapture, the verse says "strong drink" as well.

 

[natters]

Originally posted by JamieinNH:
Either way, Here is a website that gives some reasons why the SBC stopped using wine.

http://www.brucesabin.com/alcohol.html

Good link. In that article, it says (emphasis added) "For Southern Baptists, too, alcohol was a part of life. That is until the Temperance movement began to infiltrate the religious denominations in America. Finally, in 1896, the Southern Baptist Convention officially denounced alcohol and asked that churches excommunicate anyone who sold or drank alcohol. For the first time in Southern Baptist history, drinking was considered immoral."