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Poll: Real Wine in Communion
- Thread starter LadyEagle
- Start date
Hope of Glory
New Member
There are a few things, but I'm working on correcting them at my end.
As to the cooling process necessary to keep grape juice cool, if they knew their physics, when the grape juice warmed up, all they had to do was dig a hole in the sand and put the bottle in the hole. Partially bury it, pour a quart of gas on it (LP works as well, with proper modifications). Fill in the hole with at least 3" of sand over the bottle and set on fire.
As to the cooling process necessary to keep grape juice cool, if they knew their physics, when the grape juice warmed up, all they had to do was dig a hole in the sand and put the bottle in the hole. Partially bury it, pour a quart of gas on it (LP works as well, with proper modifications). Fill in the hole with at least 3" of sand over the bottle and set on fire.
As far as why they changed, I believe it to be a valid reason. Since Drinking Alcohol isn't a MUST do, it stands to reason that you can be right by either drinking it or not.Originally posted by LadyEagle:
So, basically, from the link you cited, Jamie, Baptists follow the traditions of men. And so do Catholics, Methodists, et al.
What else do Baptists have wrong?
The change made sense, and since it didn't go against the Bible and it's teachings, it's ok to make that change.
It's ok for churches to use wine.
It's ok for churches to use grape juice.
Both are ok, both are Bibically sound.
As far as what the Baptist's "do wrong", well I am sure there are plenty of things. I mean, I have only heard of one perfect person. Do you know of anyone else that started a denomination and is perfect?
Since churches are made up of men, and since we can't seem to get things perfectly right, I would think ALL churches have something, is doing, will do something wrong..
If you look hard enough, you can ALWAYS find fault.
I suppose it's one reason I THANK God that HE is my judge, and not anyone else. He KNOWS what is IN my heart, and not anyone else.
The "Baptist" as you put it is just a denomination, as there are many denominations in the world. Does that mean one is RIGHT and one if WRONG? I don't think so. Do you?
I saw this posted on a website for a church, and I think it sums it up:
Hasn't your church undergone a lot of change recently?
Yes, and we praise God for his grace toward us. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would guide his people into all truth (John 16:13). Peter urged Christians to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 3:18). Accordingly, the church needs to be prepared to make whatever changes necessary as the Holy Spirit opens its understanding of the Word of God.
So, I assume by your statement you believe the SBC is wrong, and is teaching false doctine? If so, can you tell me what you believe the "correct" denomination to follow is that gets it "perfect"?
Jamie
Jeff Weaver
New Member
LE, the problem is the phrasing of the question. Does your church offer a choice. In the case of our church, there is no choice, it is real wine or nothing.
I have never heard of a Primitive Baptist church ever using grape juice rather than real wine. Our church records even have the exemption certificate issued during prohibition. Of course most of the wine used in our churches is home made, and not commercial, though I served as pastor of one church which bought kosher wine from a Jewish establishment.
I think the same tradition is prevalent in other primitivistic baptist churches, i.e., Old Regular, Separate, and Primitives, and probably others with whom I am unacquaited.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
I wrote this line so I wouldn't use that or any other wikipedia quote as "proof" of anything. However, it is a good resource for further research.
In the history of Christianity, alcoholic prohibition is a relatively new idea. In fact, alcohol was a normal part of life. In Colonial America, the Puritans expected Christians to drink (Hearn, 1943). In the 1700s, a Baptist minister created the formula for bourbon whiskey (Hailey, 1992). During the 1800s, many Southern ministers operated stills, and sold alcohol (Hearn, 1943). Parishioners who owned stills would tithe their alcohol; and preachers' salaries often included whiskey. All this began to change, however, as the Temperance movement took shape (Hailey, 1992).
http://www.brucesabin.com/alcohol.html
http://www.brucesabin.com/alcohol.html
Illegitimate Reasons
As noted in earlier, biblical support for abstinence came after the public demand for abstinence. Once Christians decided to abstain, they looked to the Bible to support their views. This, of course, is a poor method of biblical exegesis, and usually leads to poor interpretation. Unfortunately, as Christians sought abstinence in the Bible, they often took verses out of context, or otherwise misled to support their views.
First, when one examines the text, he or she will notice that the Bible mentions alcohol quite often. In fact, the Bible mentions alcohol 240 times (Hailey, 1992). Many of those references are favorable toward wine. Verses such as Neh 2:1; Est 5:6; Job 1:13; Mt 9:17; 21:33; and 1 Tim 5:23 are all casual references to wine, showing it as normal part of Hebrew life. Further, Dt 14:26; Ps 4:7; 104:15; Hos 2:8; Pro 3:10; SS 1:2; 4:10; 7:9; and Is 25:6 are all positive aspects of wine. Wine is a symbol of joy (Ps 104:15), God's blessings (Pro 9:2,5), and a worship offering to God (Ex 29:40). Hailey goes on to note that considering Jesus drank, (Lk 7:33,34; Mt 26:26-29) and that he created wine (Jn 2:1-11), "we can derive no other conclusion except that our Lord assigned positive qualities to wine" (Hailey, 1992).
http://www.brucesabin.com/alcohol.html
As noted in earlier, biblical support for abstinence came after the public demand for abstinence. Once Christians decided to abstain, they looked to the Bible to support their views. This, of course, is a poor method of biblical exegesis, and usually leads to poor interpretation. Unfortunately, as Christians sought abstinence in the Bible, they often took verses out of context, or otherwise misled to support their views.
First, when one examines the text, he or she will notice that the Bible mentions alcohol quite often. In fact, the Bible mentions alcohol 240 times (Hailey, 1992). Many of those references are favorable toward wine. Verses such as Neh 2:1; Est 5:6; Job 1:13; Mt 9:17; 21:33; and 1 Tim 5:23 are all casual references to wine, showing it as normal part of Hebrew life. Further, Dt 14:26; Ps 4:7; 104:15; Hos 2:8; Pro 3:10; SS 1:2; 4:10; 7:9; and Is 25:6 are all positive aspects of wine. Wine is a symbol of joy (Ps 104:15), God's blessings (Pro 9:2,5), and a worship offering to God (Ex 29:40). Hailey goes on to note that considering Jesus drank, (Lk 7:33,34; Mt 26:26-29) and that he created wine (Jn 2:1-11), "we can derive no other conclusion except that our Lord assigned positive qualities to wine" (Hailey, 1992).
http://www.brucesabin.com/alcohol.html
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
This is not only poor exegesis, but the very definition of eisegesis.
Bro. James Reed
New Member
LE, the problem is the phrasing of the question. Does your church offer a choice. In the case of our church, there is no choice, it is real wine or nothing.
I have never heard of a Primitive Baptist church ever using grape juice rather than real wine. Our church records even have the exemption certificate issued during prohibition. Of course most of the wine used in our churches is home made, and not commercial, though I served as pastor of one church which bought kosher wine from a Jewish establishment.
I think the same tradition is prevalent in other primitivistic baptist churches, i.e., Old Regular, Separate, and Primitives, and probably others with whom I am unacquaited. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree.
Growing up in the Old Baptist church, I didn't even know that some churches, other than PBs, didn't use wine.
I joined the church at 9 years old, and I drank wine at my first communion that same year.
And we all know what a raging alcoholic I am now.
Being that wine has been a normal part of my life, or something that I was not forbade from anyway, I have never had a desire to go out, party, and get drunk. If parents would introduce things such as this to their children, in small amounts, during their lives, I believe there would be far less intrigue associated with alcohol when they grew older.
The same goes with driving. I knew how to drive a car by the time I was 11 or 12, and I would drive on the old highways around Mertens, TX, population 104, when my aunt was still living and we'd go up to visit. I was a well-developed driver before I even took driver's ed.
Anyway, back to topic, when the bible says wine, I take it to mean wine. When Jesus made wine for the people at the wedding, who were well drunk, I believe he made wine. When he told his disciples to drink of his blood at the last supper, I believe it was wine.
The bible is clear about the issue, which is more than I can say about a lot of Baptists, unfortunately.
Jeff Weaver
New Member
That's not a problem, it's intentional. To spin a story, you have to ask the right questions, didn't ya know...
Jamie </font>[/QUOTE]That is an unfair accusation and rather snotty, IMO. If you don't like the poll, make your own, and I'll try not to make snotty, snide comments about your poll.
Apparently you don't like the results of the poll that show Baptist churches don't offer a choice for wine in communion, so therefore, attack the poll. Sorry the results don't meet your expectations, hopes, and dreams.
[ January 10, 2006, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]
Jeff, I was considering your comments about the "phrasing of the question" and considered it constructive criticism of the poll, until you quoted the snipe by Jamie, where she falsely accused me of intentionally spinning and gave an approval with a wink to that slanderous comment. Too bad.
Since the topic has denigrated into personal attacks against me, now, I request the poll be closed and locked.
Since the topic has denigrated into personal attacks against me, now, I request the poll be closed and locked.
I believe it was a fair assessment of the question. From you posts, I have seen that you are articulated enough to know how to phrase a question.
I also believe that your predestined opinion of the subject caused that question to be asked the way it was.
I didn't say I liked or disliked the results/poll. I have never had a steadfast opinion. I have stated that a church that serves wine or grape juice would be correct from a biblical stand point. So I am not sure you get where I disagree with a poll.
I do however believe that for a poll to be accurate, *IF* we are seeking to discuss and gain knowledge in the Bible, then the questions should be phrased appropriately.
In this case, I simpled agreed with the OP that it's not because it doesn't offer the choice of churches that offer ONLY wine.
Don't be sorry about me not liking the poll, what we all should be sorry for is the fact that even with the common bound of Jesus, we can't come together and discuss topics without preconceived notions and opinons.
Jamie
I don't think churches should offer a choice, so I'm happy to see such a high percentage for the second question - it would just make things confusing, and really distract from the point of communion in the first place. Can you imagine communion where the pastor says "for communion today, we have several choices: grape juice, wine, and purple kool-aid. They are each in different colored trays, so we'll have to pass around three sets, make sure to only take from the tray you want. Similarly, for the bread we are offering torn unleavened bread, diced whole wheat bread, and Ritz crackers."
Churches should just offer one or the other. A menu should not be needed for communion.
Churches should just offer one or the other. A menu should not be needed for communion.
T
TaterTot
Guest
OUrs doesnt offer it. We have some recovering alcoholics in our church, so we would not want them to fall into their former lifestyle. Its not about what we drink, but THAT we do it and the condition of our hearts when we do it.