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Poll: Tongues
- Thread starter Gershom
- Start date
I am not going to engage in meaningless discussion any further.
Using Scripture show that Biblical tongues are for today, or that they even exist today. If you can't do it in your next post, or even don't attempt a try without the Word of God, then this thread will be closed. I refuse to engage in meaningless discussion.
DHK
What does fresh water and salt water flowing out of the same fountain have to do with a Christian being deceived by Satan.
God told Job to stand up like a man and he would declare unto him things that he did not understand. Read Job 38,39. Do you understand all things? Are you omniscient like God? Can you claim to have a perfect theology? Are you perfect in all things, sinless? Are you God? Do not think that you also could possess some wrong doctrine somewhere in your thinking. If so, where does it come from? Does it come from God?
DHK
What does fresh water and salt water flowing out of the same fountain have to do with a Christian being deceived by Satan.
God told Job to stand up like a man and he would declare unto him things that he did not understand. Read Job 38,39. Do you understand all things? Are you omniscient like God? Can you claim to have a perfect theology? Are you perfect in all things, sinless? Are you God? Do not think that you also could possess some wrong doctrine somewhere in your thinking. If so, where does it come from? Does it come from God?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]dk&h ask yourself these same questions!
Of course I ask myself these same questions. I never claimed perfection, and never claimed infallibility on any system of theology.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
I am not so foolish to deny Scripture.
The Bible does not have the following warnings contained within its pages for God's good. They are for our own good.
1 Peter 5:8-9 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
2 Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
Gershom, my husband says 'You see what you want to see'.
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
Even if tongues WERE for today, they were the lesser gift and yet some of you value such a 'showy' gift instead of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit which are Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control. (I don't see Tongues listed there... hmmmm)
Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Sort of a 'Look at me! Look at me!' gift, instead of a 'Here am I, a sinner, unworthy of the Lamb'.
Gershom, my husband says 'You see what you want to see'.
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
Even if tongues WERE for today, they were the lesser gift and yet some of you value such a 'showy' gift instead of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit which are Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control. (I don't see Tongues listed there... hmmmm)
Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Sort of a 'Look at me! Look at me!' gift, instead of a 'Here am I, a sinner, unworthy of the Lamb'.
I'm gonna take my ball and go home...
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
Coupled with:
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
And:
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
There is no biblical evidence that this has ceased. None.
Right back at you and your husband. Why is it some folks think statements like this only applies to those they disagree with? Same goes for you, sister.
Fruit & gifts. Now who would have ever guessed there would be a difference in the two?
Wasn't like that at all for me on May 22, 2005 after midnight in the privacy of my backyard alone with God, and I'm sure the same for many, many others, and doesn't need to be. There will always be show-offs in the church. Doesn't make tongues unbiblical for our time. Didn't then, doesn't now.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
The Church in Corinth had major problems. In chapter 15, Paul gets on to them for not even believing in the resurrection. Paul addresses their immediate problems of that day. Disorder was one of them.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Poll Results: Poll: Tongues (77 votes.)
Are tongues for today?
Choose 1
Yes 34% (26)
No 43% (33)
Not sure 23% (18)
I have personally spoken in tongues
Choose 1
Yes 23% (18)
No 77% (59)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wonder how the voting would have gone if only Baptists were allowed to vote.
Are tongues for today?
Choose 1
Yes 34% (26)
No 43% (33)
Not sure 23% (18)
I have personally spoken in tongues
Choose 1
Yes 23% (18)
No 77% (59)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wonder how the voting would have gone if only Baptists were allowed to vote.
R
Ramdu
Guest
From your description you make it sound as if it were some kind of mistake for the Holy Spirit to even bestow this gift upon His church.
Biblically practiced tongues, like the other gifts, are practiced with humility and not for show.
RO 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
I believe what you and DHK are doing is over-reacting to the abuses of this particular gift. The gift of tongues is not a badge of honor for those who possess it. It doesn't make us closer to God or more holy.
And I agree with alot of what DHK says in regard to the public use of this gift - that it is supposed to be a sign to unbelievers that the kingdom of God is here. (By the way, not everyone in the world knows that God's kingdom is here. In fact, many churchgoers don't know or belive this either!
Gotta sign off but I will reply as necessary later.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Ramdu, you claim to be Baptist. Are you an active member in a local Baptist Church? You list your church and it links to
If you ARE an active Baptist, does your Baptist church allow 'tongues' in their services or teach that tongues are for today?
This is your evidence?? I see none.
First, the word for "tongues" in the Greek, always means languagas. This is quite evident from Acts 2 where tongues and languages are used interchangeably. "How hear we everyman in our own language." Tongues were foreign languages unknown to the own speaking it but known to the audience or at least some in the audience listening. They were genuine real languages.
That is totally different than the gibberish spoken today which is incoherent, meaningless syllables all run together which even the most professional linguists will attest to, are not languages. What is spoken in the name of "tongues" today is fraudulent. It is a cheap imitation of the real thing. When you speak in tongues what language do you speak in? Can you tell me? Why or why not? If you don't know what language you are speaking in how do you know that you are praising God, and not Satan. My opinion in this case, is that there is a very good chance that you are giving praise to Satan without even knowing it. Why not? You don't even know what you are saying do you?
Now let's look at the Scripture that you provided.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
--First realize that in this entire 14th chapter Paul is contrasting the validity of the gift of tongues to the gift of prophecy. There is a contrast all the way through the chapter.
Realize also that all the spiritual gifts were given to the church, and none were given for personal selfish use. For example the gift of helps or the gift of healing were never given for helping just oneself, or healing just oneself. That doesn't make sense does it? The gifts were always given for the edification of the entire church, and never for one individual.
Thus the above verse is a rebuke. The very fact that the person is speaking in mysteries and not with understanding is against the will of God. It does not edify the church as a spiritual gift ought to. Therefore don't speak in tongues. It was a gift to edify the church. Paul says that he that speaks in an unknown tongue does not speak unto men. Thus the spiritual gift is useless isn't it. Why would you want to speak in a foreign language to God? Why not use your mother tongue in praying to God. God is omniscient. He knows all things. Speaking in a foreign language isn't helping you to express your thoughts to God any better; perhaps only worse. Besides that you are out of order, for the gift is for the church and only for the edification of the church. Paul is rebuking this abuse of speaking in tongues without edifying all that are in the church.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
--On the other hand the one that prophesies can speak to the entire church and all that are in the church will be edified. Prophecy is indeed the better of the two gifts. Why? All could understand what was being said.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
--He that speaketh in an unknown (foreign language) edifies himself.
That's a bad thing--totally unbiblical, since the gift of tongues was always for the entire church. Again, this verse is a rebuke. It is in contrast to the gift of prophecy which Paul says edifies the entire church. Conclusion: don't speak in tongues because they don't edify whereas prophecy does.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
--Wonderful verse! If only it was practiced. It isn't. Tongues today are not interpreted. They cannot be interpreted. You can't interpret gibberish. There is no interpretation for gibberish.
But back in Biblical times when tongues were real foreign languages they were not allowed to speak at all unless there was an interpreter. Otherwise they had to keep silence. It went on to say that the most that could speak was three, and they had to speak in order turn by turn. Otherwise they were to speak (pray) to himself and to God. It would be ridiculous to use a foreign language when praying on your own quietly and praying to God. This part of the verse has nothing to do with tongues. Speaking to God simply means praying to God. When one speaks to God he prays. If I know more than one language (and I do), I pray in my mother tongue, the language that I am able to express my thoughts to God most easily. Why on earth would I use a foreign language? There is no need of it.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
--Yes, that is what we've been saying all along. Praying in tongues is unfruitful. Don't do it.
Understanding is of key importance. Why would you do something you can't understand? Ridiculous! Thus Paul admonishes them not to speak in tongues because they couuld not understand even the foreign language that they were speaking in. It was fruitless for them to speak in another tongue when they were gaining no understanding from this gift. Prophecy was a much better gift, for it edified all that were there.
But today tongues aren't even foreign langauges. They aren't languages at all. The true gift of tongues ceased at the end of the first century when the Bible was complete (1Cor.13:8-13). It was a sign to the first century Jews as well (1Cor.14:21,22), a sign that is no longer needed today. Tongues has fulfilled its purpose. They are not needed today. What goes on in the name of tongues today is a cheap imitation of the real thing. It is the devil's deception.
DHK
D
dianetavegia
Guest
If you ARE an active Baptist, does your Baptist church allow 'tongues' in their services or teach that tongues are for today? </font>[/QUOTE]Diane, check out this SBC affilated ministry.
http://www.ronphillips.org/
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Ah, wonder why it got quiet.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
DHK: //First, the word for "tongues" in the Greek, always
means languagas.//
I respectfully and moderately disagree.
1Co 14:2 (KJV1611): For he that speaketh in an vnknowen tongue,
speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: for no man vnderstandeth
him: howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:39 (KJV1611): Wherefore brethren, couet to prophesie,
and forbid not to speake with tongues.
Compare the real Bible with a modern version:
1 Corinthians 14:2 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
For the person who speaks in [another] language
is not speaking to men but to God, since no one
understands him; however, he speaks mysteries in the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:39 (HCSB):
Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy,
and do not forbid speaking in [other] languages.
Now, since the type language spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14 is
passed gifts -- is 1 Cor 14:34-35 also done away with?-
This scripture in 1 Cor 14:34-35 clearly says that women
should not speak in the type of tongues spoken of
in 1 Cor 14 -- will not speak these tongues in church.
means languagas.//
I respectfully and moderately disagree.
1Co 14:2 (KJV1611): For he that speaketh in an vnknowen tongue,
speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: for no man vnderstandeth
him: howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:39 (KJV1611): Wherefore brethren, couet to prophesie,
and forbid not to speake with tongues.
Compare the real Bible with a modern version:
1 Corinthians 14:2 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
For the person who speaks in [another] language
is not speaking to men but to God, since no one
understands him; however, he speaks mysteries in the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:39 (HCSB):
Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy,
and do not forbid speaking in [other] languages.
Now, since the type language spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14 is
passed gifts -- is 1 Cor 14:34-35 also done away with?-
This scripture in 1 Cor 14:34-35 clearly says that women
should not speak in the type of tongues spoken of
in 1 Cor 14 -- will not speak these tongues in church.
If you ARE an active Baptist, does your Baptist church allow 'tongues' in their services or teach that tongues are for today? </font>[/QUOTE]Diane, check out this SBC affilated ministry.
http://www.ronphillips.org/ </font>[/QUOTE]I have been to Dr. Phillips church.. It is a wonderful place. Dr. Phillips has been President of the NAMB in the past. This church is a big time Missions Giving church. They have a great television program and Their Radio program called Centerpoint is awesome.
Dr. Phillips Book "Awakened by The Spirit" is a must read for all Baptist.