Poll: Tongues

[atestring]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
dk&h What qualifies you to be the expert on this subject.
Is there any smoke coming out of a chapel somewhere?

Instead of a personal attack, deal with Scripture. If you have nothing of any value to say, then keep it to yourself. If I am wrong in what I say, then demonstrate it through Scripture.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]dkh,
I have given you many scriptures and challenged your made up stories such as the greek scholar from Vancouver. Many others have given you scriptures. You choose to continue to strain at gnats and
swallow camels to try to convince people that tongues are not for today.
(personal attacks edited: there are other boards where you can practice psychoanalysis)

[ June 09, 2005, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Well, there is not much point in answering because you already have a preconceived idea on the subject.

Nevertheless, here is my answer:

I do not know what language it is because I have never learned any foreign languages. Sometimes it sounds like hebrew, sometimes baltic, but I'm not sure.

However, God gives me the interpretation in English, because that is the language I speak!! And if I am interpreting someone elses message in tongues, it's always in english when I give the interpretation, because I am always in the company of English speaking people.

Why does it work this way? I have no idea, this is one of the mysteries of God.

So there you have It. So now you can fire away!!

(Tam holds up her shield of faith!!)

Selah,

Tam

Sometimes it sounds like Hebrew, and sometimes like Baltic you say. But you have never learned a foreign language, so you don't know for sure what it is. Therefore, how is it possible to translate something that is unknown to even you.

Let's say for the sake of argument that it is a foreign language, and not just babble. How would you know (even by translation) what was being said? How do you know your translation is correct. Perhaps it is the devil that is giving you the translation to prasie him. How do you know?

Again, since you do not know a foreign language how can you claim it is? No doubt it is just babble or gibberish, as we claim all along. It is quite naive to claim that it is a foreign language and not know what it is. Those who spoke in "languages" knew what language they were speaking in, for it was for the edification of all that was there. If those that are there can't understand the "language" you speak in, then it is of no purpose or value. As Paul says it is a mystery, and has no value, and even your own interpretation is sispect because it cannot be verified. Your "language" cannot be verified, nor can your "interpretation" be verified. You really got it made don't you.

Aside from all that, it is forbidden for women to speak in tongues in the church.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Anyway, i see this verse being broken over and over:

1Co 14:39 Wherefore brethren, couet to prophesie,
and forbid not to speake with tongues.

And this verse is in a chapter about unknown tongues.
Forbiding 'unknown tongues' by defining it away is
still forbiding speaking in unknown tongues.

Caveat of the day:
I belong to a church where the speaking of tongues
is not practiced; nor is it forbidden.
We all in my church desire and practice the better guift.

Does anybody find it strange that the 'unknown tongue'
chapter (third rate gift of the Spirit) follows
the Love Chapter (first rate gift of the Spirit)?
I speak of course of 1 Corinthians 14 following
1 Corinthians 13. [/QB]

The answer to that is simple Ed.
I have given it before, but perhaps you have missed it.
Tongues have ceased. They ceased when the New Testament was completed. (see 1Cor.13:8-13)
They ceased when they ceased being a sign to the unbelieving Jews of the first century (see 1Cor.14:21,22).
Those were the two major purposes of tongues: revelation from God, whil the Bible was not yet complete, and a sign to the unbelieving Jews of the first century. Both purposes have been fulfilled. The Jews of the first century are all dead. The Bible was completed at the end of the first century with the writing of the Book of Revelation.

Therefore the verse "Forbid not to speak in tongues," taken in its proper context, would mean "Forbid not to speak in tongues (in the first century)"

Remember, not every command in the Bible is for us.
God made Abraham a father of many nations; but that promise was not given to you or I.
DHK

 

[tragic_pizza]

[ June 10, 2005, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
That's adding to the Word of God, DHK.

No, it is not adding to the Word of God, anymore than the translators added the word "unknown" all throughout the 1Cor.14 as an adjective to tongues. It is clarifying the context.
DHK

 

[Sonjeo]

From DHK-
There are many things we can understand.
Atheists try and use "logical syllogisms" to try and disprove Christianity. You sound like you are buying into the atheistic logic, which in actuality consists of illogical fallacies.[/
B]

Athiests believe they are all there is. It is incombent upon them to understand everything because,in their eyes they are the superior entity. Christians, of course, know better. We know we don't even come close to understanding everything. It is a trap to think we can explain everything, especially to an athiest. All you have to admit to an athiest is; we do not understand everything. It is an "out" but it is also the truth. An athiests ego will not be displaced so they must "understand" but christians know better. The point is , it is futile to get engaged in legalistic athiest worldy logic so don't even try. If you do you end up tailoring your understanding around them and I think that is what is happening here. Instead of always wrapping your logic around theirs, possibly in error, sometimes let your understanding hang loose in the lack of understanding because you know there is much we do not understand. The Spirit of God guides us in this and the right answer or response, emphasizing "response", will come.
Now, for the point of understanding "gibberish". As I said before you cannot compare the impossiblity of 2+2=3 to the possiblity of God understanding the "gibberish". You see, you hear gibberish but how can you be sure there is not meaning in it. I have heard hispanic folk speak emphatically and very fast in their tongue and I can assure you it sounds like gibberish. Still though, you can record this "gibberish" and analyze it, but is it wise to conclude God is not interpreting something open to interpretation? Remember we do not have to understand everything. This is not 2+2=3, this is interpretation of sound.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Sonjeo:

Now, for the point of understanding "gibberish". As I said before you cannot compare the impossiblity of 2+2=3 to the possiblity of God understanding the "gibberish". You see, you hear gibberish but how can you be sure there is not meaning in it. I have heard hispanic folk speak emphatically and very fast in their tongue and I can assure you it sounds like gibberish. Still though, you can record this "gibberish" and analyze it, but is it wise to conclude God is not interpreting something open to interpretation? Remember we do not have to understand everything. This is not 2+2=3, this is interpretation of sound.

When I hear Spanish, I many not understand the language, but I know that it is Spanish or a Spanish-related language. Likewise, I can do that with most language groups: Ukranian, German, Punjabi, Hindi, French, Czeck, Polish, etc. I recognize that they are languages, though I may not understand what is being said.
Another thought: Language is communication. I have never yet seen two people speak gibberish to each other. Have you?
The modern tongues speakers speaks "only to God" he thinks, because no one can understand him. It is gibberish, infantile babbling. I once found a website on how to speak in tongues. It was repeat after me these syllables, and then repeat them faster and faster. Sounds real spiritual doesn't it?
Biblical tongues are always real genuine tongues. "How hear we every man in our own language?"
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
How does it clarify? Rather it adds your own conclusions to an otherwise unadulterated text.

If tongues are over, they're over. If not, then not. God doesn't need you to alter the Bible to justify your own position.

If my postion is wrong, then show me where I am wrong from the Scripture. You haven't done that yet. Most of what I have heard from you is personal attacks, and very little Scripture if any at all.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

quote:Let's say for the sake of argument that it is a foreign language, and not just babble. How would you know (even by translation) what was being said? How do you know your translation is correct. Perhaps it is the devil that is giving you the translation to prasie him. How do you know?

You forgot something. God is doing the translating, not me!! and I'm sure He knows what I am saying!

Then there's this!When I hear Spanish, I many not understand the language, but I know that it is Spanish or a Spanish-related language. Likewise, I can do that with most language groups: Ukranian, German, Punjabi, Hindi, French, Czeck, Polish, etc. I recognize that they are languages, though I may not understand what is being said.
Another thought: Language is communication. I have never yet seen two people speak gibberish to each other. Have you?

So, you know what foreign languages are being spoken when you hear them, but I don"t?????

What kind of logic twisting is that??

You just can't see the forest for the trees!!

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[DHK]

It means Tam, that there is an obvious difference between a real language and fake or modern tongues, i.e., gibberish. As I have mentioned before I have studied French, Greek and Hebrew, and have learned two other foreign languages enough to be conversant in them. My wife studied French, German, Spanish and one other language. We live in a multi-cultural society. I have heard people speak in tongues on numerous occasions. There is no similarity to the tongues that Charismatics speak today and actual foreign languages. They are as different between night and day.

So you can't see the forest for the trees,
And what kind of logic do you go by anyway?

You claim to speak in tongues, and you don't know what language you speak in? How can you be sure that you are not praising Satan, instead of God. The answer is you don't.
But probably you are just rattling off nonsense syllables that have no meaning at all. You cannot offer any evidence that you are speaking a foreign language. The Apostles could at least do that.
DHK

 

[ASLANSPAL]

Just an honest inquiry :

When it says "I will pour out MY SPIRIT ..."

does it mean all of it?

all of it except tongues?

75%?

just enough to get the job done in the last days?

Why was not the verse specific?

Is it either all or nothing?

Would God with hold the 3rd rate gift compared
with love and others?

Is there any examples of this pouring?

Is it an experience that is a mystery?


That particular verse is pretty powerful.

 

[tamborine lady]

Quote:You claim to speak in tongues, and you don't know what language you speak in? How can you be sure that you are not praising Satan, instead of God. The answer is you don't.

Because when God gives me the interpretation, it is about Jesus and God, and all things good. But I will tell you something.

No matter how much scripture we have given you, you are going to believe what you want to believe! There is no showing you a different truth than the one you have seen all these years.

So, I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall. Now, having done all to convince you, I will simply stand on the truth that I know: tongues are for today, and they will not cease until we are taken up in the clouds to be with Jesus

All the words in the world to the contrary will not make it so.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[DHK]

Acts 2:19-20 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

This is part of that same prophecy. Has it been fulfilled?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Quote:You claim to speak in tongues, and you don't know what language you speak in? How can you be sure that you are not praising Satan, instead of God. The answer is you don't.

You don't get it do you?
How do you know that it is God giving you the translation, and not just the subconscious part of your mind (to be nice), or the devil himself? How can you be sure your interpretation is the right one? In fact how can you be sure that you even have the true gift of interpretation? You have no objective verification of any of this. We all just have to take your word for this. It doesn't sound very convincing.

Here is how I believe it worked in the New Testament.
First, Paul went to many nations and had the need to speak in tongues because of the different language groups he encountered. He said plainly that he thanked God that he spake in tongues more than them all.

Now when he spoke in another language, he spoke in the language of the people of the nation that he was in. It was his heart desire, for example to go to Spain (Romans 16). He may have had that opportunity between his two imprisonments. If he did, and God gave him the gift of tongues, he would have spoken to them in Spanish. Right?
So this begs the question? Why the need of an interpreter if he was already speaking in the language of the people he was addressing. It doesn't make sense that he would be in need of an interpreter. He would have the gift of "languages." He wouuld be speaking in Spanish. What would be the need of an interpreter.

Read through the Book of Acts. On his three missionary journeys where did Paul go to first? In each place he went to the synagogue, that is to the Jew first and then to the Greek. The Jews had been scattered all over the known the world at that time. The need of the interpreter was to translate from the foreign language "Spanish" back into Hebrew or Aramaic, the language of the Jews. Why? Because tongues was a sign for the unbelieving Jew (1Cor.14:21,22). Otherwise there would be no need for an interpreter. Why the interpreter if the speaker already has the gift of languages. There is none, unless tongues is a sign to the Jews, as it was, but now is no longer. Tongues have ceased. Are your tongues translated back into Hebrew as a sign to the unbelieving Jews in your church? Why the need for the translation if you are speaking in the language of those that understand. That is the only reason there was for the gift of tongues.
DHK

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by DHK:
You don't get it do you?

She never will, you're banging your head up against a brick wall. Her tongue is super glued to the roof of her mouth.

 

[tamborine lady]

Being a little judgemental aren't we?? Or is it sour grapes?? Hmmmm----

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[tragic_pizza]

[ June 10, 2005, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[tragic_pizza]

[ June 10, 2005, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[Link]

I studied 5 or 6 foreign languages in college (depending on whether you consider Anglo-Saxon/Old English to be a second language) and actually learned to speak one fluently after I graduated. I also studied linguistics and learned about morophology, syntax, historical linguistics, and various other subjects.

I have heard messages in tongues that sound to my ears to be foreign languages. I have heard a lot that sound to me to be gibberish as well. That does not mean that they necessarily are all gibberish. If someone repeats the same phrase over and over again, it can sound like gibberish.

I do not believe all manifestations of tongues are necessarily real languages. Some may be gibberish. But that does not negate the reality of real speaking in tongues. It does not negate the reality of the tongues the early Christians spoke in as recorded in the New Testament scriptures. The Bible teaches us that speaking in tongues is among the gifts the Lord distributes to His church, so we should believe the Bible and believe in the real gift of tongues.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Link:

I do not believe all manifestations of tongues are necessarily real languages. Some may be gibberish. But that does not negate the reality of real speaking in tongues. It does not negate the reality of the tongues the early Christians spoke in as recorded in the New Testament scriptures. The Bible teaches us that speaking in tongues is among the gifts the Lord distributes to His church, so we should believe the Bible and believe in the real gift of tongues.

I ask the question again:
I have never yet found two people or more people speaking modern tongues with each other and at the same time having a meaningful conversation. Have you? Biblical tongues were foreign languages meant to communicate a message in the language of a people that understood what was being spoken. Thus the two or more people, or even the entire congregagtion, that would be communicating in the language being spoken by the one speaking in tongues, just doesn't happen today; does it?
Today it is all gibberish. People speaking in gibberish don't speak gibberish one with another. They can't. Gibberish has no meaning.
The gift of tongues has ceased. How can you claim a gift of today when it has ceased?
DHK