POLL: Woman for President

Posted by C4K

No your jumping to conclusions once again. I mearly implied that if one could express support for a female president because "the Bible never out write condemns it" then you could express support for gender alteration surgeries because the Bible never out right condemns them. And again I am pretty sure some homosexuals would support that hypothesis, for it is the very foundation were churches such as the "homosexual based" united church of christ build there probaganda on.

Posted by C4K

If I did say yes or no what would be your conclusion if any?

Posted by C4K

Again I have to apologize. Where I grew up to tell someone to use there brain was considered a very helpful thing, for it implied that we had the mental capacity to understand the lesson being taught. But I am sorry I have to realize that every ones customs are not my own, and I will work harder to fit this societies idea of meekness.

Your servant
fishnbread

 

Posted by GinaL

No I don't understand your point, All the positions mentioned are positions were the woman has an indirect effect on someone (execpt for Deborh whome the bible never states was called of God to lead Isreal)for instance was it Ester who spared the Hebrews or was it the king? God could have easily made Ester the ruler of the country but he did not, the reason being was simple he did not want to break his own rules of authority. Does a politicians wife approve bills or does the politician? The point is women can have great influence on men but at the end of the day all the decisions fall into his lap.

Posted by GinaL

I would ask that you don't make such statements. Growing up in the times that I have as a rather darker than most Afro-Jew (as some would call me) I experienced prejudice and do not consider myself that, simply because I aknowledge That God has a seperate plan for women and men, does not mean I think any lower of you than I do myself or C4K.

Your servant
fishnbread

 

By Fishnbread

I have already said, if you could publically admit that you think all of this apply to women in all situations I could at least resepct your view as not being hypocritical. I would disagree, but I would admire your consistancy.

 

I just discovered this thread but since it's 2 AM, I am not going to read all 9 pages, especially since it takes my computer a minute or so to download each page.

I do not think a woman should be president. Generally speaking, although I think men and women are equally intelligent, I think woman fall apart under pressure more easily, are more emotional in their decisions, and don't have the ability men have to make people mad and not care.

I know there are men who are not good leaders, and there are women who are good leaders in some roles - but being president is the role of roles and there is enormous pressure in that position.

I am not saying this because of PMS or any of that stuff -- it is just the way God made us. Men and women are different in the way they handle things, see things, and make decisions. I do not think women were made to handle this kind of leadership position and I would not want a woman president, I don't care how much I liked her.

BTW, I wanted to vote as independent but not voting for a woman but the statement was "independent and would not vote for a 3rd party woman" so I had to choose "conservative but not vote for a woman."

 

Posted by C4K

Im not going to admit that all of the list applies to all women in all situations I will however answer each and every one individually,

Posted by C4K

This one is basically true for every one if you think about it how many people in your congregation (or congregations you've visited) have objected to the pastors teachings while church was still in service? or in school for that matter?

Posted by C4K

Not to a complete stranger such as a rapist, however yes such is true with political authority (such as the governer), spiritual authority (such as the pastor), privite authority (such as her husband or father), inter- galactic-infinite-divine authority (such as God). The point of that verse is not that a woman is to always have authority over her the point is that a man should not have a woman over him (such as at the fall).

Posted by C4K

In the church yes! To her kids (such as when they have a home work question etc..) No!

Posted by C4K

Politically, and spiritually yes!

Posted by C4K

I approve of silence in men also. However this verse is speaking of the church so yes all women must be silent. In the church!

Your servant
fishnbread

 

How can you say that 3 and 5 only apply to the church while number 4 right in between also includes politics? If 4 applies in politics should not 3 and 5?

Is that really proper exegesis?

 

pOSTED BY C4K

So if you give someone advice it has to be limited to one subject? In any case what you think your setting out to prove your not, for instance lets say your right lets say that verse was only talking about taking authority over the church, If a woman becomes president of the country is not her church under her authority? Let me remind you that as long as the congregation is located in her country it is under her authority if shes running the country. Just think about it for a second!

Your servant
fishnbread

 

I am not "settng out to prove" anything - simply pointing out that this is one complete passage. IMHO it is not for us to try and figure out what God means by choosing which parts of which verse in the passage apply to which situation. I do not think that any president, male or female, has any spiritual authority over the local church.

We are going to go nowhere on this - I hesitated to come back in because we have reached an impasse before. I am willing to say that you have reached your conclusions fairly. Are you willing to acknowledge the same for me, or do you still think that I do not take the word of God literally because I disagree with you?

 

Posted by C4K

One The bible is one complete passage. Two the president has authority over every church in this country who can argue that? No one! Three how do you seperate spiritual authority from political authority? What are you saying? If a woman is president can she not order her congregation do something? Are they not duty bound to obey her? even if her orders interfere with the churches way of doing things? or does the pastor supercede even the presidency? The fact is the president is running the congregations in this country if he signs a bill that makes it unlawful to witness for christ on any days of the week other than sunday then the church has to follow those rules. THAT IS TAKING AUTHORITY, IN, ON, AND OVER THE CHURCH.

Posted by C4K

What I think of you or any one else is irrelevent to the debate at hand Im just a human and like all other humans I've met I am a opinionated person (I may not always be right). Are you asking me if Im done with the thread?

Your servant
fishnbread

 

Dunno, but I am done with it. I have said all I could. I don't like to debate with yelling (all caps), "use your brain", "stop and think about that", and such.

You logic implies that unless a person qualifies for the office of pastor he/she is not qualified to be president. That being the case can you name one person who is qualified.

We are not going to agree. If you think I am not a Bible literalist you are wrong, but are entitled to your opinion. I disagree with you, but will not accuse you of misinterpreting the Bible.

[ November 09, 2005, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

Posted by C4K

One, theres nothing wrong with using caps. Two, theres nothing wrong with telling someone to think about something however I do apologize if I hurt your feelings or if you felt dejected. Three, I already apologized twice for telling you to use your brain, Im sorry for the third time, I did not mean to insult you if it makes you feel better to continually batter me with something I already apologized for then by all means continue on. I will continue to apologize, as long as you want until you think you feel better about!

Posted by C4K

I would be very thankful if you did not tell me what my logic is (especially if it's not true.) Id like to tell you, if thats okay. Your confused on what Im trying to say! where did I once in this thread make such a statement or even imply it?

Posted by C4K

I've already stated my opinion about you and your character is not important. What is important is that you and I work to become the best christians we can be. However! I would not mind apologizing if that's what you want.

Your servant
fishnbread

 

I am sorry that you cannot seem to disagee agreeably.

Hold to your point of view, that is fine. I realise that I will not be accorded the same privilage from your perspective, but as you said, that doesn't really matter.

You are convinced that I am not accepting the Bible viewpoint on this issue. I am grateful that I only have to answer to One for my views on scripture.

If there is a better qualified woman running for any office, I will vote for her and stand before God with total confidence.

 

Posted by C4K

You can either agree or disagree but never disagree agreably. I do however disagree, it is impossible for a woman to become president and not break Gods standards.

Posted by C4K

As am I grateful, I would hate having to scold you or any one else so for that reason Im glad you don't answer to me (no offense). BTW I think your accepting the bibles view point exactly the way you were taught to, Im not so sure your out right refusing the word of God, I just think your a little confused., that's all.

Posted by C4K

You and I both know what God's stand is on a female presidency and there is no reason why you could scriptually vote for a woman and not be rebelling against the Bible, now Im not insulting or trying to make you feel bad about your views I am only concerned for your spiritual well being, I hope you will pray to God on this matter and study the word of God more. Im sorry I just don't see how a woman can be president and not break Gods rules. Even from your view point of "women can't take authority over a church" I don't see because the church is under the presidents authority all church are and on that alone a woman can't be the president. But in any case I will be praying for you (as Im sure you'll say the same in responce). I do apreciate your knid comments and wish you the best.



Your servant
fishnbread

 

Please do not try and state what I know. Thank you for your deep concern for my spiritual condition, I appreciate you taking care for an erring, sinful, willingly ignorant, and rebellious brother such as I. I note that you have made a bold charge against me, that I am "rebelling against the Bible." This is a terrible personal charge against brother in Christ. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. I can assure that I am not in rebellion against the Bible, and I humbly request that you withdraw this deeply personal attack. If I were not the one involved in this debate I would remove such as a violation of BB rules. I also resent your statement that I only follow what I have been taught or that I am somehow confused because my view is not the same as yours.

Do you honestly not see how a person can differ with you and still be right with God? Do you really believe that every person who would vote for a woman leader is in rebellion against the Bible?

Whatever happened to our liberty in Christ on issues that were not clear cut? What has happened to Romans 14v5?

 

Posted by C4K

Please cease the sarcasm, I did not charge you personally with any thing I only stated that I did not see how one could vote for a female president and not rebel against the Bible and I don't! again your making assumptions. I thought the essence of a debate was two individuals exchanging different ideas, well Im giving my ideas on the bible, am I breaking any rules for that? Have you voted for a female presidential canidate? If you have not (which Im sure of) then my "attack" (as you so coldly put it) does not apply to you. However if you feel you deserve an apology every time I express contrary views to yours I will happily do so.

Posted by C4K

The bible is only giving one complete message, and it is only taking one un-changing stand on every issue if two idividuals are debating two different points regarding the Bible, then one of them is wrong! God does not have double standards, unless the PERFECT Holy Spirit inspired a bible that contradicts it's self, in which case to make such an implication would be an insult to God almighty. Conclusion! One of us is right and one of us is wrong, or both of us are wrong, but two people can not argue two different points on the bible and both be right it's an impossibilty.

Posted by C4K

On issues that are not clear! Not on crystal clear issues.

Your servant
Fishnbread

 

If this is such a clear cut issue one would think that everyone else but me would agree with you. It is only my stubboness, ignorance, willingness to be led astray, refusal to take the word of God literally, and rebellious spirit that keeps me from seeing something so clear. Surely everyone else can see that I am so totally in error here.

Fine my friend, the only way for this to work out is for me to agree with you, and that is not going to happen. Make all the judgements you want, as you are going to do anyway.

See you around the BB.

 

Posted by C4K

If your going to complain about my previeous statements (especially the ones I apologized for)Then there is no real reason why I should be talking to you, besides half of the "negative" statements you accused me of pointing at you I have not even said, Now Im sorry if you took them that way, but that is what happens when you make assumptions about people, Again! like I said on the other thread I happen to like you very much and you seem to be a very kind man from my alaysis, and you really should not take all of my statements as insults (especially when they are not), My only point is that one of us is obviously wrong and Im going to pray to God to show me the right way if Im wrong, You must understand I have no personal problems or grudges with you and will greatfully apologize if you become offended by any of my statements, again my costums and practices are different from your own that being said it's easy for one of us to insult the other one un knowingly. (one mans insult is another man's complement).

Posted by C4K

Im not asking you to agree with me Im asking you to think about my side for a second I read scripture such as 1 Tim 2:12 saying: "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." Then going on later in the chapter to give reasons completely contrary to your stand.

Then I read scriptures such as Isa 3:12 "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Clearly speaking of women rulers as a negative thing to have.

Then I look at your interpretation of 1 Tim 2:12 which is that a woman cannot have authority over a church and still don't see credance for a female presidency because the ruler of the country has authority over the churches as well. If God would not give women authority over there own husbands (who would likely follow) or over there congregations (who would likely follow) and have reasons such as 1 Tim 2:14 "And Adam was not decieved, but the woman being decieved was in the transgression." Why would he give them authority over the whole country? What! they can steer a church wrong so they shouldent lead and they can stear a household wrong so they shouldent be in authority, but they can't steer the country wrong?

The Bible does not declare gender alteration surgeries a sin but it declares homosex a sin and we assume he God stands against such demonic procedures and are right to do so. Because gender alteration surgeries are an extreme of homosexuality. Like wise the the "presendency" is the extreme of authority, we know God stands against the big things like a woman president because he stands against the minor things like a woman head of a little congregation. That same philosophy is the reason why baptists like you and I can speak against gender alteration. BTW been to your site. It's pretty good.

Your servant
fishnbread

 

To understand this verse in the context it was written, we must look at the Greek. "Gunh" and "Anhr" are the words in koine Greek for "wife" and "husband" respectively (not "man" and "woman" in general in this context). This context is referring to a home-marriage-family situation. Paul is saying that he does not allow a wife to exercise "authenteo" over a husband in the marriage relationship (authenteo = control in a domineering manner).

This verse has to do with the marital relationship. It was not intended to refer to all men and women everywhere. It certainly does not forbid a woman from serving as POTUS, Mayor, Councilperson, etc.

The whole of this chapter (and verse 1 of Ch4) gives allegories discussing the Babylon invasion and captivity. By inferring what you do, you have completely taken this chapter out of its intended context.

 

The results are unintentionally misleading.

The category "I am Political CONSERVATIVE & would NEVER vote for a WOMAN for President!" appears to be in the lead, but it is in fact BEHIND those who are Political CONSERVATIVES and WOULD would vote for a woman. (11 men and 8 women).

The TRUE results at 51 votes are as follows:

37.25% of those polled are conservative voters who would vote for a woman (regardless of her partisan affiliation).

33.3% of those polled are conservative voters who would vote for a republican woman.

33.3% of those polled are conservative voters who would not vote for a woman at all.

11.76% are conservatives who are unsure.