Poll: Would You Accept A Church of Christ Immersion as a Valid NT Baptism?

[Tom Butler]

I'm not qujite sure how to format a poll, so I'll pose the question and you answer yes or not, and add any comments.

In another thread, one poster said the majority of the SBC churches he is familiar with would accept into membership one who had been baptized in the Church of Christ.

My question is, would your church consider vaild such baptism?

Or, would you require rebaptism?

 

[TCGreek]

In most CoC , a Southern Baptist would have to be rebaptized to become members of their local churches.

A member of the CoC baptism would not be considered symbolic but regenerative. So we are looking at two different reasons for baptism here.

But what if the CoC person believes Jesus saves but also believes that such salvation is completed in water baptism, Wouldn't the fact that Jesus saves take care of the person's salvation even if they're wrong about baptism?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Perhaps you could inform me what is different about COC baptism from Christain baptism. I honestly don't know much about their baptism.

But I will add that I would not re-baptize someone unless there was a very particular reason for it. My reasons would be:

1. They had been infant baptized.
2. They had been baptized, but were unbelievers and desired to be baptized again as a believer.

This was the case with me. I was infant baptized (unbeliever). Then I was baptized as an adult, but it was to make the preacher happy so I could date his daughter (still an unbeliever). When I was born again, I was baptized again as a believer. I was even baptized again as a believer because I was concerned I didn't fully surrender to Christ. This was done out of ignorance.

So I have been sprinkled and triple-dipped.

RB

 

[Allan]

I'm not qujite sure how to format a poll, so I'll pose the question and you answer yes or not, and add any comments.

In another thread, one poster said the majority of the SBC churches he is familiar with would accept into membership one who had been baptized in the Church of Christ.

My question is, would your church consider vaild such baptism?

Or, would you require rebaptism?

It would honestly depend on that churches teaching regarding what it takes for a person to saved.

Their theology is that baptism is part-of the salvation process and without it you are not saved.

I have studied their theology somewhat and I have a few friends who are CoC pastors, which they state is an accurate statement. Now are there some CoC who do not 'depend' on baptism to save but state it is an act which proves one salvation? Yes and thus my opening comment. To add baptism as part-of salvation makes it a works based salvation.

If someone teaches anything but the essential "by grace through faith" they are adding to the gospel and thus presenting 'another' or false gospel, regardless of the sincerity of heart. Just because a person wants to believe 2+2=5 will not make it truth and it is the "truth" that sets us free.

Salvation is in Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone, and is the only salvation from God's throne that I might not be left alone with sin for nothing to atone. And that I'll shout that through a megaphone!

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Salvation is in Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone, and is the only salvation from God's throne that I might not be left alone with sin for nothing to atone. And that I'll shout through a megaphone!

Shout it loud my brother! To the glory of God alone!

 

[TCGreek]

If someone teaches anything but the essential "by grace through faith" they are adding to the gospel and thus presenting 'another' or false gospel, regardless of the sincerity of heart. Just because a person wants to believe 2+2=5 will not make it truth and it is the "truth" that sets us free.

So what is the difference if doting every "i" and crossing every "t" is required?

Is it possible that a person can be saved prior to baptism even if they believe baptism is the point at which a person is saved?

 

[Allan]

So what is the difference if doting every "i" and crossing every "t" is required?

Is it possible that a person can be saved prior to baptism even if they believe baptism is the point at which a person is saved?

I personally have yet to meet a person who sat under a false gospel come to a saving knowledge of the Lord through it. And I do (and have done) a lot of personal and door to door witnessing in the last 17 years so I can at least nominally say this.

Can a person be saved under such teaching? Yes it is 'possible', but they can not be saved through that false teaching!

With respect to the CoC view, that person does not put their full trust in Christ becuase it is not Christ alone that saves. It is Christ plus baptism. For their salvation they hold to 'both' Christ AND their baptism. Their entire salvation is hinged upon baptism and not Christ. Paul rebuked all who added to that simpleness of the gospel. We are saved by grace through faith. You know as well as I do the scathing rebukes he gave to the legalists for wanting to bring 'additions' into gospel.

 

[TCGreek]

I personally have yet to meet a person who sat under a false gospel come to a saving knowledge of the Lord through it. And I do (and have done) a lot of personal and door to door witnessing in the last 17 years so I can at least nominally say this.

Can a person be saved under such teaching? Yes it is 'possible', but they can not be saved through that false teaching!

With respect to the CoC view, that person does not put their full trust in Christ becuase it is not Christ alone that saves. It is Christ plus baptism. For their salvation they hold to 'both' Christ AND their baptism. Their entire salvation is hinged upon baptism and not Christ. Paul rebuked all who added to that simpleness of the gospel. We are saved by grace through faith. You know as well as I do the scathing rebukes he gave to the legalists for wanting to bring 'additions' into gospel.

A false gospel it is then.

 

[Havensdad]

Perhaps you could inform me what is different about COC baptism from Christain baptism. I honestly don't know much about their baptism.

But I will add that I would not re-baptize someone unless there was a very particular reason for it. My reasons would be:

1. They had been infant baptized.
2. They had been baptized, but were unbelievers and desired to be baptized again as a believer.

This was the case with me. I was infant baptized (unbeliever). Then I was baptized as an adult, but it was to make the preacher happy so I could date his daughter (still an unbeliever). When I was born again, I was baptized again as a believer. I was even baptized again as a believer because I was concerned I didn't fully surrender to Christ. This was done out of ignorance.

So I have been sprinkled and triple-dipped.

RB

LOL.

CoC believe in Believers Baptism. The structure, timing, etc. is identical to your average Baptist Church.

The difference is in what they believe is occurring. While Baptists believe that you "put your faith in Christ" through a prayer, most commonly a "sinners prayer", CoC believes that instead of a "sinners prayer" the repentant individual gets dunked. Think of it as a PHYSICAL prayer of salvation.

They are VERY clear that it is not the Baptism itself that saves, but the faith in submitting to it. Much as a Baptist would say that a "Sinners prayer" does not save, but the faith that inspires one.

 

[JamesBell]

That is true, but I also know that my family (which are mostly CoC) contend that one cannot enter Heaven without being baptized. When I ask about the thief on the cross I usually get ignored for a couple of days.

 

[Havensdad]

I personally have yet to meet a person who sat under a false gospel come to a saving knowledge of the Lord through it. And I do (and have done) a lot of personal and door to door witnessing in the last 17 years so I can at least nominally say this.

Can a person be saved under such teaching? Yes it is 'possible', but they can not be saved through that false teaching!

With respect to the CoC view, that person does not put their full trust in Christ becuase it is not Christ alone that saves. It is Christ plus baptism. For their salvation they hold to 'both' Christ AND their baptism. Their entire salvation is hinged upon baptism and not Christ. Paul rebuked all who added to that simpleness of the gospel. We are saved by grace through faith. You know as well as I do the scathing rebukes he gave to the legalists for wanting to bring 'additions' into gospel.

I think this is rather unfair. I have met many CoC that I would call brothers in Christ. I do disagree with them, but I do not see it as you do.

If you met someone who said they were a Christian, but had never "Personally accepted" Christ as their savior, but had faith in Him, would this not bother you? Let me ask a question(s)...

#1 Is some form of "sinners prayer" necessary for salvation? Something wherein we confess our sins to God, ask for forgiveness, for Him to come into our lives, etc.?

#2 If so, what is the difference in requiring a VISUAL prayer (baptism) rather than an AUDIBLE prayer? I really don't see much of a difference: in both cases, Baptists and CoC, they are saying it is the faith that brings the Prayer(Baptist) or Baptism(CoC) and that faith saves, not the act itself.

Perhaps I am just unable to understand the difference. I mean, we are not shamans...we do not just "feel" saved and become that way. We Place our faith and trust in Christ, and whether that is through a prayer, or through a Baptism, I just cannot comprehend the problem here...

I think sometimes Christians look for reasons to be divided.

 

[TCGreek]

Romans 3:21-5:1 is the basis of my soteriology.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Would You Accept A Church of Christ Immersion as a Valid NT Baptism?

Or did the person just get wet?

 

[Allan]

LOL.

CoC believe in Believers Baptism. The structure, timing, etc. is identical to your average Baptist Church.

Yes it is 'akin' to believers baptism since they believe that only believers should be baptised but they do NOT beleive a person who is not baptised will go to heaven/be with God.

The difference is in what they believe is occurring. While Baptists believe that you "put your faith in Christ" through a prayer, most commonly a "sinners prayer", CoC believes that instead of a "sinners prayer" the repentant individual gets dunked. Think of it as a PHYSICAL prayer of salvation.

They are VERY clear that it is not the Baptism itself that saves, but the faith in submitting to it. Much as a Baptist would say that a "Sinners prayer" does not save, but the faith that inspires one.

That is not true at all. They to pray for God's mercy and salvation but that does not save of itself in their theology but baptism must be in order that salvation be 'complete'. Without baptism salvation to them is assured.

As I said, I have studied their views somewhat and I have friends who are pastors of the CoC, one inparticular married my wife and me (he was a firend of her family) and a non-denom pastor at that time. He then left there soon afterward to pastor at the CoC for 9 years. Their view isn't that baptism is like a prayer because they to pray for salvation. Baptism to them is part of the process of becoming saved.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

He probably went in a wet sinner and came back up the same way.

Baptism is an outward picture of what has already happened in the heart.

 

[Allan]

I think this is rather unfair.

What has 'being fair' got to do with the truth or more specifcally the gospel?

I have met many CoC that I would call brothers in Christ. I do disagree with them, but I do not see it as you do.

Please show me where I said I don't call some brothers in Christ. As I said, it depends on the that particular church is teaching but in their mainline view it is a false gospel, just like Catholics. Are there saved Catholics? Yes but their mainline view of salvation is false.

If you met someone who said they were a Christian, but had never "Personally accepted" Christ as their savior, but had faith in Him, would this not bother you? Let me ask a question(s)...

I think you're confused. If some has placed faith in Christ they have 'personally accepted" Christ. Your trying to play semantical word games that those of like faith us but I'm speaking of their doctine which is contrary to scripture regarding the gospel. They do not place their faith in Christ but in Christ AND baptism to save them.

#1 Is some form of "sinners prayer" necessary for salvation? Something wherein we confess our sins to God, ask for forgiveness, for Him to come into our lives, etc.?

You have a warped misunderstanding of this. No one is saved who does not cry out to God whether by mouth or heart and repent. (Rom 10:9-13).

#2 If so, what is the difference in requiring a VISUAL prayer (baptism) rather than an AUDIBLE prayer?

I would say that you might need to understand better their position on the matter. It isn't a visual prayer unless you will also contend that their calling out to God to save them the first time was a waste of time and faith.

I really don't see much of a difference:

Then please read:

Emphasis On Baptism
Churches of Christ have a reputation for placing much stress on the need for Baptism. However, we do not emphasize baptism as a "church ordinance," but as a command of Christ. The New Testament teaches baptism as an act which is essential to salvation (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16).

We do not practice infant baptism because New Testament baptism is only for sinners who turn to the Lord in belief and penitence. An infant has no sin to repent of, and cannot qualify as a believer.

The only form of baptism we practice in churches of Christ is immersion. The Greek word from which the word baptize comes means "to dip, to immerse, to submerge, to plunge." And the scriptures always point to baptism as a burial (Acts 8:35-39; Romans 6:3,4; Colossians 2:12).

Baptism is extremely important because the New Testament sets forth the following purposes for it:

It is to enter the kingdom (John 3:5).
It is to contact Christ's blood (Romans 6:3,4).
It is to get into Christ (Galatians 3:27).
It is for salvation (Mark 16:16; 1st Peter 3:21).
It is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
It is to wash away sins (Acts 22:16).
It is to get into the church (1st Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:23).
Since Christ died for the sins of the whole world and the invitation to share in His saving grace is open to everyone (Acts 10:34,35; Revelation 22:17)., we do not believe that anyone is predestined for salvation or condemnation. Some will choose to come to Christ in faith and obedience and will be saved. Others will reject His plea and be condemned (Mark 16:16). These will not be lost because they were marked for condemnation, but because that is the path they chose.

Wherever you are at this moment, we hope you will decide to accept the salvation offered by Christ and that you will offer yourself in obedient faith and become a member of this church.

Followed up by good ol' Wiki:

[edit] Doctrine of Salvation (Soteriology)
Churches of Christ believe that humans (of accountable age) are lost in sin (but not born sinful cf Ez 18:4-22, Matthew 19:14)(Romans 3:23) and can be redeemed because Jesus Christ, the Son of God, offered Himself as the atoning sacrifice (Romans 6:23).

A main difference between Churches of Christ and other Christian churches is their doctrine of salvation. Churches of Christ believe that salvation begins when one obeys God's commands.

Here are the steps to salvation according to the Church of Christ; paraphrased:

1. One must be properly taught, and hear (Rm 10:17, Matt. 7:24),
2. One must believe or have faith (Heb 11:6, Mk 16:15-16),
3. One must repent, which means turning from one's former lifestyle and choosing God's ways (Acts 2:38, 17:30, Luke 13:3),
4. One must confess belief that Jesus is the son of God (Matthew 10:32-33; Acts 8:36-37),
5. One must be baptized (Acts 2:38; I Pet 3:20-21; Romans 6:3-5; Mark 16:16; Acts 22:16),
6. One must remain faithful unto death (Rev. 2:10).

Baptism in Churches of Christ is performed only by bodily immersion because in the New Testament the Greek term baptizo is always translated as "to immerse." Only those mentally capable of belief and repentance are baptized (i.e., infant baptism is not practiced because there is no example of such). Due to their views on the relationship of baptism to salvation, the Churches of Christ are sometimes regarded as holding to baptismal regeneration, which means that only Baptism saves the individual. However, Churches of Christ reject this criticism.

In Restoration theology, the agency of the Holy Spirit in salvation is viewed strictly in His inspiration of the scriptures which teach men what God has done and what they must do in order for salvation to occur. If one is saved, and does not continue in study of the scriptures, then the Holy Spirit's action on the individual cannot be fully effective. Therefore, baptism in the Churches of Christ is taught as obedience toward God and absolutely necessary (preceded by hearing, believing, confessing and repenting) which results in forgiveness of sins, and places the individual in a position to further obey God's commands, which if he faithfully performs till his death he will be granted entrance into Heaven and thus saved.

Notice it states that 'baptism' is preceded by hearing, believing, confessing and repenting.. So it is not some 'visual' prayer as you seem to think.

in both cases, Baptists and CoC, they are saying it is the faith that brings the Prayer(Baptist) or Baptism(CoC) and that faith saves, not the act itself.

No, it doesn't. They say faith brings prayer AND baptism and THEN the person is saved.

I think sometimes Christians look for reasons to be divided.

And some times those reasons are good ones.

 

[Bob Farnaby]

Regardless of the church concerned (CoC or other) if the person was baptised by immersion as a beliver professing their faith, I'd be happy to welcome them into church membership.

Regards
Bob

 

[Allan]

Regardless of the church concerned (CoC or other) if the person was baptised by immersion as a beliver professing their faith, I'd be happy to welcome them into church membership.

Regards
Bob

So you would welcome one who trusted in Christ AND their baptism to save them since their faith includes baptism completing the work of salvation?


Just asking, because they do not teach that Christ alone saves but that you ARE NOT saved by simply placing your faith in Him but that salvation is complete only when you are baptised.

Thus it is (to me) a little more complicated than a blanket statement when we are dealing with people and the teachings they were under.

 

[Tom Butler]

I think this is rather unfair. I have met many CoC that I would call brothers in Christ. I do disagree with them, but I do not see it as you do.

If you met someone who said they were a Christian, but had never "Personally accepted" Christ as their savior, but had faith in Him, would this not bother you? Let me ask a question(s)...

#1 Is some form of "sinners prayer" necessary for salvation? Something wherein we confess our sins to God, ask for forgiveness, for Him to come into our lives, etc.?

#2 If so, what is the difference in requiring a VISUAL prayer (baptism) rather than an AUDIBLE prayer? I really don't see much of a difference: in both cases, Baptists and CoC, they are saying it is the faith that brings the Prayer(Baptist) or Baptism(CoC) and that faith saves, not the act itself.

Perhaps I am just unable to understand the difference. I mean, we are not shamans...we do not just "feel" saved and become that way. We Place our faith and trust in Christ, and whether that is through a prayer, or through a Baptism, I just cannot comprehend the problem here...

I think sometimes Christians look for reasons to be divided.

You may call lthem brothers, but I assure you, they would not reciprocate. They consider you lost. Nor would they admit you to membership in one of their congregations based on your Baptist baptism.

Re #1--The Bible speaks of repentance and faith for salvation, not saying a prayer. I never prayed the "sinner's prayer" when I was saved. The Ethiopian Eunuch never prayed a prayer. Cornelius never prayed a prayer. Those who were saved on Mars Hill after Paul's sermon never prayed a prayer. On the day of Pentecost, Peter never called on any of his listeners to pray a prayer. The Phillipian jailer was not told to say a prayer.

That said, i do believe that anyone who cries out to God for mercy in repentance and faith will receive it. But the repeating of some magic words does not necessarily lead to salvation.

Re #2 This is quite a stretch to equate baptism with the "Sinner's Prayer." Baptism in no way is analagous to crying out to God for mercy.

I suggest you Google "Church of Christ Baptism," and see if any of the sites you find reflect your view. They won't.

 

[Servent]

Re #1--The Bible speaks of repentance and faith for salvation, not saying a prayer. I never prayed the "sinner's prayer" when I was saved. The Ethiopian Eunuch never prayed a prayer. Cornelius never prayed a prayer. Those who were saved on Mars Hill after Paul's sermon never prayed a prayer. On the day of Pentecost, Peter never called on any of his listeners to pray a prayer. The Phillipian jailer was not told to say a prayer.

I was raised and baptized in CoC, when I was baptized no one asked me about sin or repenting. 10 years ago when I was saved I never prayed a prayer, for that matter no one ever talked to me about repentance, God did reveal Himself to me through a sign, there was a business I would pass on my way to work that had a sign in front of it, they would put scriptures on it ever week, through that sign God reveald Himself to me and I cried out for forgiveness at work on a Sat. night, the next day I was in church, I gave my testimony and was baptized a few weeks later to be obedient to Gods word.