As we have recently had a new thread which brings this subject up again, and expectedly with the same contentions, I am posting this new poll about your views on the subject. Law and Grace are capitalized as properly naming the 'system' of right standing with God we are 'under.'
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Poll: Your view of tithing and giving
- Thread starter Alcott
- Start date
HawgWyld
Member
I have a lot of problems with the concept of tithing. My wife and I do tithe, but there was a time not long ago when we simply couldn't afford to as we struggled to even pay our bills. We gave what we could, but it wasn't much.
Our fortunes have improved, however, so tithing is now possible and we do it gladly.
I well realize it is easy for those who can afford to tithe to lecture other people about doing the same thing. Having been on the other side of the fence when we were trying to decide which utility bill we could put off for a while and be OK, however, it is hard for me to wag my finger at people and tell them to give to the church.
On a related note, I know of a church in my metro area (not a Baptist one, thankfully) that requires people to agree to allow it to garnish 10 percent of their wages before they'll allow them to be members. That level of compulsion is, I think, nuts and one of the things that gives Christians a bad name...
Our fortunes have improved, however, so tithing is now possible and we do it gladly.
I well realize it is easy for those who can afford to tithe to lecture other people about doing the same thing. Having been on the other side of the fence when we were trying to decide which utility bill we could put off for a while and be OK, however, it is hard for me to wag my finger at people and tell them to give to the church.
On a related note, I know of a church in my metro area (not a Baptist one, thankfully) that requires people to agree to allow it to garnish 10 percent of their wages before they'll allow them to be members. That level of compulsion is, I think, nuts and one of the things that gives Christians a bad name...
Money is required for the upkeep of the church and the welfare of the members. As I related on here in another thread and this will tie into what has previously been said. My Father gave as he was able raising a family of four, in our small family church. What I remember most about him is not what came from his wallet or bank account but what came from his heart. In a nutshell my Father gave of himself and he taught me and all his children this valuable lesson in life. Giving to the church monetarily is good, give as the Lord prospers you and you are able to do... But giving to each other in the service of God supersedes everything else... WWJD... Brother Glen
HawgWyld
Member
Money is required for the upkeep of the church and the welfare of the members. As I related on here in another thread and this will tie into what has previously been said. My Father gave as he was able raising a family of four, in our small family church. What I remember most about him is not what came from his wallet or bank account but what came from his heart. In a nutshell my Father gave of himself and he taught me and all his children this valuable lesson in life. Giving to the church monetarily is good, give as the Lord prospers you and you are able to do... But giving to each other in the service of God supersedes everything else... WWJD... Brother Glen
I can't disagree with any part of that...
I did not participate in your poll, as none of the answers were applicable to me.
Without consideration of the very basic purpose of Tithing, the whole discussion in my view becomes entangled.
A division was made among brothers.
The division of the brothers was effected by division of land and such parcels being for them and their tribes......EXCEPT for ONE brother who was appointed to be the roaming PREACHER of Gods Word...
Because....
Joshua 13
[33] But unto the tribe of Levi Moses gave not any inheritance: the LORD God of Israel was their inheritance, as he said unto them.
The point of a TITHE is to "support" the one who feeds you.
The "feeding" is Gods Word.
The "support" is via "money", "goods", "service", "offerings".
You can "support" the livelihood of the one who feeds you (Gods Word)....with money, with food, with supper, with clothing, with a piano, with literature for the congregation, with helping to repair, or maintain the Church....in other words with ANYTHING that provides for "your" Preachers needs necessary for his care and needs to do his job, which is preach the Word of God, "to you".
Is TITHING demanded? No. TITHING is taught. Individuals personally decide IF they are willing to give something for something OR take something for giving nothing, and are rewarded accordingly, by Gods Grace.
Dr . Bruno VAN de VLIET
New Member
TITHING IS ANTI-NEW TESTAMENTAL. IT IS IN DISAGREEMENT WITH CHRISTIAN FREEDOM. GIVING FREELY IS THE ONLY GOOD AND POWERFUL WAY OF GIVING.
EVEN TITHING IN THE OT IS MEANT FOR THE PEOPLE NOT FOR THE TEMPLE NOR THE PRIESTS. IT IS ACTUALLY GIVING T
NE'S SELF AND NOT TO GOD AS SUCH.
EVEN TITHING IN THE OT IS MEANT FOR THE PEOPLE NOT FOR THE TEMPLE NOR THE PRIESTS. IT IS ACTUALLY GIVING T
NE'S SELF AND NOT TO GOD AS SUCH.
I follow all of the NT teaching to the church on tithing. In other words, obviously I don't tithe.
That said, if a Jew did not tithe he could be killed. I think the principle of giving that was the minimum under Moses is a valid starting place for free giving today. I say (vaguely, lest it be construed as boasting) that our personal giving to the Lord starts at a tithe but doesn't stop there.
That said, if a Jew did not tithe he could be killed. I think the principle of giving that was the minimum under Moses is a valid starting place for free giving today. I say (vaguely, lest it be construed as boasting) that our personal giving to the Lord starts at a tithe but doesn't stop there.
Joseph shall add
Member
Tithing is great if you are under the law. So bring in all the tithes, Go and get a 10th of the increase of you fruit and veggies and give them to the ministers. Not money, never was. Never will be. When you pay ministers you get nothing but imposters in the ministry. They look Godly but lack power. The real sign of Gods minister is in the demonstration of Gods power. New testament stuff here. To many ministers today are fat in sin and cash. True servants of God are shown in the old testament and the new as providing for there own needs. Remember the prophets of old would not even take silver. Give us some dirt they said. The curse came on the servant that wanted the silver. Today that same thing is happening.
The apostles had power because they followed Jesus not because they wanted the worlds riches. From the time of the new birth till your death the one whom feeds you is the Holy Spirit. Thus it was written i will have a people whom were not my people and they shall be my people and shall have no need of a teacher fro i shall be there teacher. Thus no modern day minster is a teacher. The Holy Spirit is the teacher.
The apostles had power because they followed Jesus not because they wanted the worlds riches. From the time of the new birth till your death the one whom feeds you is the Holy Spirit. Thus it was written i will have a people whom were not my people and they shall be my people and shall have no need of a teacher fro i shall be there teacher. Thus no modern day minster is a teacher. The Holy Spirit is the teacher.
BTW, this thread could generate some really good discussion on an excellent topic for believers to understand. Already from the results it looks like almost ALL agreed on the misuse and abuse of tithing we see today.
Look forward to jumping back in and seeing how this progresses.
Look forward to jumping back in and seeing how this progresses.
Tithing has entirely to do with a human priesthood. Pastors are not, not, NOT priests. Jesus Christ is now the priest forever after the order of Melchizedek and ever lives to intercede to the Father on our behalf. He is resurrected, glorified, and exalted, seated at the right hand of the majesty on high. He does not need tithes to live to sustain a limited priestly ministry.
Tithes were never from monetary income or wages earned. They were for a human priesthood. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the New Covenant in the blood of Christ.
Giving for the ministry of the church has nothing to do with tithing (that is forever gone) by any stretch of the imagination.
Tithes were never from monetary income or wages earned. They were for a human priesthood. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the New Covenant in the blood of Christ.
Giving for the ministry of the church has nothing to do with tithing (that is forever gone) by any stretch of the imagination.
Calv1
Active Member
If you are going to "Tithe", then it better be 22%, for that was the OT Tithe, 10% for Levites, 10% for general fund, 2% for poor, God gave laws that took care of His people. The word "Tithe" nor any reference to it is given in the NT, however something opposite to the Tithe is given, "The Disciples GAVE AS THEY PROSPERED", it doesn't say they tithed as they prospered, and Paul never said he was coming to pick up a Tithe, but offering.
So if you want to live under the OT Tithing system, it's 22%, NT we give as much as we can give, but only out of a grateful heart. Giving should be second nature to the Christian as much as loving or caring, yet less than 4% (I think it's a bad poll) actually do give. So we ARE TO GIVE, the law of love, but not a hard, cold 22%.
Good post, Calv1, but tithing couldn't even be measured as a matter of income. Only land owners tithed, and they only tithed of the annual increase of the crops and livestock on their land. They did not tithe of any money earned. Hirelings who worked on the land did not tithe from their wages. Fishermen, carpenters, tailors, and others neither tithed of their craft nor sales from their craft. Only land owners tithed and it was only because God controlled the weather. No one tithed from what they earned through their own skills.
I'm a bit surprised that no one has voted for Christians should 'test God' and see if they are blessed by tithing (or not). But it does seem that the Malachi 3 passage on this subject,in which "Test me in this, says the Lord God...," is not invoked as it used to be. I didn't vote for it myself because it's a settled issue with me. I tried it, gave it a statistical test of hypothesis, and saw the correlation correspondent fall out and the confidence interval go down. So the test either fails, or it is not applicable in the NT covenant.
This reminded me of a story I heard about an old preacher named C. D. Arnold (happened long before my time). In the churches in the area where he lived some new preachers had introduced the tithe, which had not been taught in the churches before and was causing quite a stir. Brother Arnold was in the forefront opposing the innovation. He gave out that he would be preaching on tithing at a certain place and time. This announcement drew a large crowd, so large that all present could not fit in the church house. When the time came Brother Arnold ascended the pulpit. He asked, "Are there any Levites here?" None responded. He proceeded, "I intended to teach on tithing tonight, but since there are no Levites present there is no point. I guess I'll preach on something else." Then he launched into a sermon that was enjoyed by most of the crowd. [Evidently Brother Arnold might have been a little "eccentric" but he made his point.]
[Disclaimer: Though I put Elder Arnold's words in quotes, this is simply his words as best I remember how the story was told, and should not be taken as exact quotes.]
I've seen Christians who have tithed themselves right into poverty.
I think that most who believe the tithe is for today look at things such as Abraham giving 10% (and Abel's offering), which was not under the Mosaic Law (where the 22% comes in).
Abram gave a tithe to Melchizedek:
- It was one time only
- It was of the spoils of war, not monetary income or wages
- It was to a functioning human priest
Abel's animal sacrifice was not a tithe. It was a typological blood atonement. That's what God obviously commanded and why He didn't accept Cain's offering of crops that represented his works. I know people have tried to stretch the word "better" or "more excellent" in Hebrews 11 to make Cain's failure a matter of quantity rather than quality, but it doesn't work and it sacrifices the integrity of the types and shadows of Christ just to fail at supporting a phantom tithe.
We make a huge assumption when we consider Abraham's tithe to be a one time event (it was most likely a more common practice than this assumption would allow, but there is no record either way). The point, however, remains that Abraham did give a tithe prior to it's existence under the Law. Personally, I agree with you in that I believe the tithe is fulfilled in Christ. But that said, we can't dismiss the opposing view so easily.
I do believe it was a common practice in the area at that time, which is why Abram did it. However, the tithe of war spoils was a separate law or custom from other tithes. The reason Abram tithed from his war spoils historically speaking was because of the region the events took place. There is no reason to believe that Abram gave any other tithes to Melchizedek. We would think that, if he did, Hebrews 7 would not put "a tenth" in the singular and clarify that it was from "the spoils." I am sure that many other people gave tithes to Melchizedek, but Abram only did it once for a particular reason.
However once was enough to establsh that Melchizedek was greater than the "father of the faithful," and the Levitical priests who were Abraham's descendants. Jesus, then, succeeded Melchizedek in this superior priestly line. There is an interesting possible correlation between the one tithe from Abram and the one sacrifice of Christ, just as there would be continual tithes to the Levites matching continual sacrifices.
I disagree about interpreting the passage in Hebrews to mean Abram tithed only once (even to Melchizedek). I’m not interested in going to detail as Abram was called out of a culture of paganism, but I will note that the point the author of Hebrews makes is not about Abram’s tithe but the status of a priest of God apart from the Levitical priesthood.
That said, the issue is not to whom Abram tithed but if he tithed and if so what was that significance. We know he did at least once. We also know that tithing, at least in some form, existed within ANE culture. For example, a text from the time of Gungunum (Sumerian dynasty of Larsa, 20th century BC) states that a tithe of copper, ivory, corals, and precious stones was offered to Ningal (goddess of reeds). Assyrian sources from the 19th century BC speak of a tithe of business income. The ancient Babylonians payed a tithe to šamaš.
My point is that tithing, at least in some form, was assumed within the ANE culture (within the culture in which God called Abram). It has meaning beyond blind obedience, and I think it important to consider its significance. I believe the tithe is fulfilled in Christ and that this fulfillment is greater than the tithe itself.