Pope Francis gives church hundreds of new saints...

[WestminsterMan]

Read up on what made these saints martyrs, DHK. They were martyred because they refused to renounce Jesus Christ as savior and Lord and convert to Islam.

Being Baptist does not make one a Christian either. My Baptists neighbors have beliefs that would make you cringe. They are Baptist on Sunday and Wiccan/Pagan the rest of the time.

BTW, if it hadn't been for the Crusades in the 16th century, you would be speaking Arabic right now.

DHK knows about the Battle of Lapanto and how the English and French protestants refused to add ships to the fleet because of their "commerce" with the Ottoman Empire, and how the defeat of the Ottoman fleet was nothing less than a miracle from God, and how praying the rosary by the fleet was also a component of the miracle, but he takes nothing away from the history.

WM

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Revmitchell
I have not misconstrued anything. It is a silly activity by the pope and the church. And my post stands.

So, are you saying protestants or baptist don't point to people they believe are exempliary in life and to be held up as an example for others? I find that hard to believe based on the books I've read about Moody, Jonathan Edwards, John Bunyan, Spurgeon, Oswald Chambers ( I still have his devotional "His upmost for my Highest" on my bookshelf), Billy Sunday, etc...
The activity is no different therefore your accusation that it is "silly" would apply to people who respect and follow these men's examples that I have just mentioned.

Ok so the President of the Southern Baptist Convention says to someone in the next office "hey Bill - I now think D.L.Moody was a godly saint" - and then CNN or CBS picks up on that and announces to the world that the SBC president finally thinks D.L. Moody was godly - a saintly individual.

Really - the news is going to pick that up?

OR is the designation of "Catholic saint" MORE than that? Is it "official permission to pray to the dead" - what is it that is being done?

Or is this the first time that Catholics learn that a Catholic Christian was slain by a Muslim in the dark ages for holding to faith in Christ?

OR is this a strategic maneuver so that dialogue between the Pope and Muslim leaders - where some form of context is established such that Muslims cannot claim that they alone suffered in their dark ages clash with the Catholic Church.

 

[Revmitchell]

Ok so the President of the Southern Baptist Convention says to someone in the next office "hey Bill - I now think D.L.Moody was a godly saint" - and then CNN or CBS picks up on that and announces to the world that the SBC president finally thinks D.L. Moody was godly - a saintly individual.

Really - the news is going to pick that up?

OR is the designation of "Catholic saint" MORE than that? Is it "official permission to pray to the dead" - what is it that is being done?

Or is this the first time that Catholics learn that a Catholic Christian was slain by a Muslim in the dark ages for holding to faith in Christ?

OR is this a strategic maneuver so that dialogue between the Pope and Muslim leaders - where some form of context is established such that Muslims cannot claim that they alone suffered in their dark ages clash with the Catholic Church.

You have more patience than I do to explain such minute detail that should automatically be known already by any thinking person.

 

[WestminsterMan]

It is plausible that upwards of 50 million or more saints were killed by the RCC during the dark ages - in addition to people of other faiths like Muslims killed during the crusades to the middle east.

snip...

Bob

After the black death, that number might actually exceed the population of Europe, so it's is arguably high.

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

You have more patience than I do to explain such minute detail that should automatically be known already by any thinking person.

Arrogance on top of ignorance is nothing to be proud of Rev. Using such a fallacious ill-logical tactic would be laughed at by the most basic of Logic 101 students not to mention anyone trained in the science. You shame yourself here and it seems to happen to you on a regular basis. From exactly where did you receive your education?

WM

 

[Revmitchell]

Arrogance on top of ignorance is nothing to be proud of Rev. Using such a fallacious ill-logical tactic would be laughed at by the most basic of Logic 101 students not to mention anyone trained in the science. You shame yourself here and it seems to happen to you on a regular basis. From exactly where did you receive your education?

WM

What are you talking about?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
But for non-Catholics it does not mean anything at all.

However given the thread about Catholics growing in numbers in the South maybe we should take note of the fact that each time the Pope ties his shoes or does anything at all - it makes national news.

And I was reminded recently that the President of the United States (G. W. Bush) insisted on referring to the Pope as "THE Holy Father".

By every measure that is good marketing for anyone thinking about joining the Catholic Church.

Bob:

The RCC has the biggest target on it because it most fully represents Christ on Earth. Protestant churches don't get that attention because Satan and the media don't see them as such.

My guess is that we both know the media gives attention to the RCC because it has trillions of dollars of assets and is the largest single Christian denomination on the planet (and in America) - claiming about 1 billion members of some type. More people - more readers.

If the Catholic church were instead - ten guys in a barn - claiming to have originated back to the days of Paul with papers to prove it - no media attention at all when one of them turns to the other and says "hey I think 800 guys that got killed by muslims in the dark ages for faith in Christ, were in fact saintly fellows".

I think we both know that.

I think Muslims and Jews view the Catholic church as the Christian Church that did them wrong at one time and thus their view about Christians - is really their view about the Catholic Church.

Tell a Muslim, Hindu or a Jew that you are Christian and many of them will think that you worship the Pope as your leader.

Bob:
As a formar Baptist, I couldn't figure out why everyone payed so much attention to the Pope. Now I know... it's because he REALLY IS the vicar of Christ.

WM

I do not claim that people who war against the Seventh-day Adventist church are doing so because they know that Ellen White was a true prophet of God - having more inspired dreams and visions given her directly by God than all the Popes and seers of the Catholic church in that same period of time - combined. I know that they do not think anything of the sort.

And I think you also know that nobody is speaking out against the RCC because they suppose that the Pope really is the Vicar of the Son of God - and just don't want to admit it.

We should be clear about that at the start.

Whether or not those respective claims are legit or not is a matter of historic investigation and Bible study - but we cannot suppose others are looking at the subject in that light.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[WestminsterMan]

What are you talking about?

Oh my good Lord... Point proven.

WM

 

[Revmitchell]

Oh my good Lord... Point proven.

WM

Ok well I suppose you have the right to rant all you want. When you pull yourself together let me know.

 

[BobRyan]

It is plausible that upwards of 50 million or more saints were killed by the RCC during the dark ages - in addition to people of other faiths like Muslims killed during the crusades to the middle east.

However - even so - it is hardly the "line in the sand" that defines Protestantism to argue that the Christians killed by Muslims don't count or are not saved etc - because they were Catholic.

Surely we can all agree the rightness or wrongness of the RCC does not depend on our demeaning Mary or demeaning any of the Christians who died for their faith in Christ - be they Catholic or not.

After the black death, that number might actually exceed the population of Europe, so it's is arguably high.

WM

In Dan 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13 the 1260 years of dark ages style persecution of the saints is described as taking place after the fall - division - of the pagan Roman empire. Over that vast period of time 50 million or more saints lost their lives at the hands of the RCC.

By comparison - the black death is limited to less than 75 years in the 14th century.

The Black Death was one of the most devastating pandemics in human history, peaking in Europe between 1348 and 1350, and killing between 75 million and 200 million people.[1][2][3] Although there were several competing theories as to the etiology of the Black Death, recent analysis of DNA from victims in northern and southern Europe indicates that the pathogen responsible was the Yersinia pestis bacterium probably causing several forms of plague.[4][5]


The Black Death is thought to have started in China or central Asia.[6] It then travelled along the Silk Road and reached the Crimea by 1346. From there, it was probably carried by Oriental rat fleas living on the black rats that were regular passengers on merchant ships. Spreading throughout the Mediterranean and Europe, the Black Death is estimated to have killed 30 to 60 percent of Europe's population.[7] All in all, the plague reduced the world population from an estimated 450 million to a number between 350 and 375 million in the 14th century.

So this means that there was time enough and population enough for the RCC to have done quite a bit of damage over that 1260 year period.

I don't claim that every year was as bad as others - but lots of time and lots of lives lost.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[WestminsterMan]

My guess is that we both know the media gives attention to the RCC because it has trillions of dollars of assets and is the largest single Christian denomination on the planet (and in America) - claiming about 1 billion members of some type. More people - more readers.

And as such, it also holds to beliefs that are in stark contrast to the liberal progressive belief structure. I think we would agree on this point.

If the Catholic church were instead - ten guys in a barn - claiming to have originated back to the days of Paul with papers to prove it - no media attention at all when one of them turns to the other and says "hey I think 800 guys that got killed by muslims in the dark ages for faith in Christ, were in fact saintly fellows".

I think we both know that.

Yes!

I think Muslims and Jews view the Catholic church as the Christian Church that did them wrong at one time and thus their view about Christians - is really their view about the Catholic Church.

That's true. Further, almost all of the Christians churches in the Middle East are Catholic of various flavors.

Tell a Muslim, Hindu or a Jew that you are Christian and many of them will think that you worship the Pope as your leader.

I do not claim that people who war against the Seventh-day Adventist church are doing so because they know that Ellen White was a true prophet of God - having more inspired dreams and visions given her directly by God than all the Popes and seers of the Catholic church in that same period of time - combined. I know that they do not think anything of the sort.

And I think you also know that nobody is speaking out against the RCC because they suppose that the Pope really is the Vicar of the Son of God - and just don't want to admit it.

We should be clear about that at the start.

I do.

Whether or not those respective claims are legit or not is a matter of historic investigation and Bible study - but we cannot suppose others are looking at the subject in that light.

in Christ,

Bob

Well - that has been the disagreement since 1517 or so, and it's not likely to change here on BB.

WM

 

[BobRyan]

WM - thank you for your thoughtful posts.

My guess is that we both know the media gives attention to the RCC because it has trillions of dollars of assets and is the largest single Christian denomination on the planet (and in America) - claiming about 1 billion members of some type. More people - more readers.

If the Catholic church were instead - ten guys in a barn - claiming to have originated back to the days of Paul with papers to prove it - no media attention at all when one of them turns to the other and says "hey I think 800 guys that got killed by muslims in the dark ages for faith in Christ, were in fact saintly fellows".

I think we both know that.

And as such, it also holds to beliefs that are in stark contrast to the liberal progressive belief structure. I think we would agree on this point.

I agree that with the Catholic Church stand on abortion, and opposition to gay marriage places them on the conservative side of the isle - as opposed to the populist media.

HOWEVER - the Catholic VOTE is predominately in FAVOR of those politicians and political parties that promote those liberal ideas as well as certain social programs. The idea seems to be among Catholics that the values about marriage and the sanctity of life do not out-weigh the benefits of certain social programs in America.

By contrast the SBC and others - not only teach the conservative view on those subjects - they also tend to VOTE the conservative view in real life - making a difference.

Thus if holding to conservative views were the only issue - the Media would highlighting all the Evangelical, Protestant - Bible Christian groups that vote AND teach against those liberal agendas -- only more so.

And the one thing other than voting liberal parties and agendas into office that the RCC does to promote liberalism - is in its promotion of evolutionism.

Evolutionism has practically killed the RCC and all other Christian groups in Europe - and it is strangling the Christian Church in America.

So having Christian universities promote blind-faith-evolutionism is only killing the remaining stronghold for Christianity in America.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[WestminsterMan]

WM - thank you for your thoughtful posts.

I agree that with the Catholic Church stand on abortion, and opposition to gay marriage places them on the conservative side of the isle - as opposed to the populist media.

HOWEVER - the Catholic VOTE is predominately in FAVOR of those politicians and political parties that promote those liberal ideas as well as certain social programs. The idea seems to be among Catholics that the values about marriage and the sanctity of life do not out-weigh the benefits of certain social programs in America. snip...

Bob

This is absolutely TRUE and is a result of the infiltration of left wing intelligencia into the educational arm in the Catholic University System in America during the 50's through the 70's. Thank God this is changing and the last three Popes (including Frances) are to thank for it. Toward this point, please take note of the number of so called "Catholic" universities that are no longer allowed to use this in their title. Again, the Catholics in the South are a HUGE driving influence on this house cleaning and re-education process.

Though the victory is achieved, the battle continues. Satan has nothing to lose.

WM

 

[DHK]

It is plausible that upwards of 50 million or more saints were killed by the RCC during the dark ages - in addition to people of other faiths like Muslims killed during the crusades to the middle east.

However - even so - it is hardly the "line in the sand" that defines Protestantism to argue that the Christians killed by Muslims don't count or are not saved etc - because they were Catholic.

You shall know them by their fruits. The fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of the Christian.
And you know that no murderer will enter into the kingdom of God. Murder is as far as one can get from the fruit of the Spirit.
The RCC preaches salvation by works; entirely opposed to salvation by grace through faith. It is not a Christian religion, and I have no reason to believe that those who went to war under Innocent III were any more Christian than the Muslims themselves. Unsaved is unsaved is unsaved. You can't get anymore unsaved than unsaved.

Surely we can all agree the rightness or wrongness of the RCC does not depend on our demeaning Mary or demeaning any of the Christians who died for their faith in Christ - be they Catholic or not.

We do not pray to the dead, we do not worship Mary, we do not seek apparitions from the dead -- etc, but that does not mean we go to the other extreme of demeaning Mary or the Christian martyrs either - because that makes not case at all in favor of the Protestant model.

in Christ,

Bob

Unsaved is still unsaved. The RCC does not teach salvation in Christ alone, by grace alone through faith alone. That is what salvation is all about.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Ok so the President of the Southern Baptist Convention says to someone in the next office "hey Bill - I now think D.L.Moody was a godly saint" - and then CNN or CBS picks up on that and announces to the world that the SBC president finally thinks D.L. Moody was godly - a saintly individual.

Something like that.

Really - the news is going to pick that up?

Worded that way? Absolutely, then they can speculate that prior to the SBC confession of it the SBC may not have thought Moody was saintly. They may get a few witness who claim they always thought Moody was a heretic.

The reason the News picks up this particular story is that unbeknownst to you the Pope declared that there was no other way to Heaven but through Jesus Christ. As you know John Paul II had been in dialogue with Muslims. So they see this as a way to create an antagonism that wasn't previously there. And finally the Media wants to spin Catholics as religous extreemist because Catholics teach against the immorality the press supports. So if they can lump Catholics in with Jihadist (which they are trying to do) then all the better for them. They hope by doing so they can make the Catholic voice irrelevant despite its numbers.

OR is the designation of "Catholic saint" MORE than that? Is it "official permission to pray to the dead" - what is it that is being done?

What gives us permission to pray to the dead is that we don't pray to the dead. But to those who are in Christ the Church victorious. That means guys who are very alive with Christ in Heaven. Just like Jesus was able to speak to Moses and Elijah.

Or is this the first time that Catholics learn that a Catholic Christian was slain by a Muslim in the dark ages for holding to faith in Christ?

Not at all but there is a long standing tradition of what hoops to jump through to make a declaration. That doesn't mean these weren't saints previous to this declaration. But again the News picked it up because of wanting to create greater tension between muslims and Catholics.

OR is this a strategic maneuver so that dialogue between the Pope and Muslim leaders - where some form of context is established such that Muslims cannot claim that they alone suffered in their dark ages clash with the Catholic Church.

Now you are getting into the realm of Jack Chick. Sorry brother that guy sees a Jesuit in his boogy man closet.

 

[WestminsterMan]

You shall know them by their fruits. The fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of the Christian.
And you know that no murderer will enter into the kingdom of God. Murder is as far as one can get from the fruit of the Spirit.

Hmmm.... Can't be forgiven for murder now?

The RCC preaches salvation by works; entirely opposed to salvation by grace through faith. It is not a Christian religion, and I have no reason to believe that those who went to war under Innocent III were any more Christian than the Muslims themselves. Unsaved is unsaved is unsaved. You can't get anymore unsaved than unsaved.

The RCC teaches biblical salvation - that which is clearly in scripture. You know.. scripture? That stuff contained in the bible? That book put together and codified by the Catholic Church? That book that you hold sacred while at the same time hating the Church responsible for it?

Unsaved is still unsaved. The RCC does not teach salvation in Christ alone, by grace alone through faith alone. That is what salvation is all about.

And the reason is because that doctrine is a man-made one, and isn't found in scripture. In fact part of it is held as anathema by the Church, but you've been banged around with that one many MANY times on here before haven't you?

Ooooh Yeeeeaaaahhhh!!!

WM

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What are you talking about?

I know you don't have a lot of patience speaking with people trying to use logic but when considering that in the tables of population in mideval europe the population in the time period we are talking about totalled 123 million from 1340-1450. Wiping out 50 million people would have decimated Europe and the population would not have rebounded as we see. Especially considering if we count into the death the black death of another 25 million people. Muslims would have been able to just walk into most of Europe and settle there without fighting. But as we see that didn't happen so 50 million is an exageration.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Ok well I suppose you have the right to rant all you want. When you pull yourself together let me know.

Rant? Hardly - just amazed that you ACUTALLY didn't have a clue regarding that post. If you REALLY didn't then I will be happy to explain.

WM

 

[Revmitchell]

I know you don't have a lot of patience speaking with people trying to use logic but when considering that in the tables of population in mideval europe the population in the time period we are talking about totalled 123 million from 1340-1450. Wiping out 50 million people would have decimated Europe and the population would not have rebounded as we see. Especially considering if we count into the death the black death of another 25 million people. Muslims would have been able to just walk into most of Europe and settle there without fighting. But as we see that didn't happen so 50 million is an exageration.

This post is not logic. It is conflating two separate issues to deflect. My use of patience had nothing to do with the info in this post.

 

[Revmitchell]

Rant? Hardly - just amazed that you ACUTALLY didn't have a clue regarding that post. If you REALLY didn't then I will be happy to explain.

WM

You really need to go back and reread all of that. So as not to continue to embarrass yourself.