Featured Pope Francis??

This is exactly my point made above. You attempt to start the 'doctrinal dance' with one of three Catholics on this board. Not even going to bite on some of your more absurd claims about Catholic teaching: 'Mary resurrected already in heaven or Mary worship but, yes, I have found adequate biblical support for the Catholic faith in the bible or I wouldn't be one.

Here is a bit of biblical support for a doctrine that is commonly misunderstood by Protestants like yourself. This is not my work and I am listing the website I took it from. Apologetically, it is hardly in depth, but for people like KJVRICH who did convert based on what he/she thought she learned from the bible after obviously being swayed by an evangelical, it shows the bible can and does support Catholic teaching:

The Bible is clear that faith holds a first and prominent role in the salvation of every person.

Heb 10:38
But my just one shall live by faith ...
Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him (God) ...
The Bible is equally clear on the saving role of good works in the lives of the faithful.

1 Pet 2:12
Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that if they speak of you as evildoers, they may observe your good works and glorify God on the day of visitation.
Rev 2:2
I know your works, your labor, and your endurance ...
Mt 5:16
Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
Mt 25:34-36
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
The Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.

James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.
James 2:20-22
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
1 Cor 3:8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.
The Bible indicates that it is wrong to disturb the balance of works expressing a life of faith. Man is not saved by faith alone.

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Nor is man saved by works alone.

Rom 9:31-32
Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law ... because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works.
Gal 3:11
And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for "the one who is righteous by faith will live."
The Bible declares that salvation is a gift of God alone and constantly reaffirms that faith has a primary role in that salvation.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.
Heb 6:1
Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,
Heb 9:14
... how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
2 Tim 1:9
He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 3:4-5
... the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy.
Rom 3:27-28
What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Gal 2:16
(We) know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
The constant teaching of the Roman Catholic Church on these Scriptures was clearly restated on January 13, 1547.

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. VIII
When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, "without which it is impossible to please God" and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, "if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise," as the Apostle says, "grace is no more grace."
The Council also reiterated the relationship of good works to man justified by faith.

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. XVI
Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: "Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name"; and "Do not lose confidence, which hath a great reward." Hence, to those who work well "unto the end" and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap020800.htm

 

I have not, Salty. The last time the subject came up it was after 'Thinkingstuff' became Catholic and wanted to change his denominational status. At that time, it wasn't possible. I just noticed that Melanie was able to do so. I will check with an admin. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

but for people like KJVRICH who did convert based on what he/she thought she learned from the bible after obviously being swayed by an evangelical, it shows the bible can and does support Catholic teaching

Walter,
1-I am a he.
2-NO, I was not swayed by an evangelical. To me it was very simple.....for many years I often wondered where all the man made doctrine came from and why as Catholics we (generations of my family) blindly followed.... and as time went on, I found myself continually disagreeing with many RCC teachings, until one night I was flipping channels on the TV, when I came to EWTN (catholic television) the topic was about all these novenas to various saints, and caller into the "mother angelica show" said...."why isn't Jesus Christ enough for you?"...I don't even remember her reply, but it just resonated with me......"yes. Why isn't Jesus Christ enough!!" and from that point on I read the bible along with a catholic catechism and it was my finding that many of the teachings are un-biblical, and I found that when the RCC does use the bible as a back up for its position, I found that it is not uncommon the verse they are using is taken out of context.

 

Reply to posting # 21....


You do realise that trent, in that very quote you have to me, denies the Pauline views of Justification, and thus it presents another/false gospel?

We either receive salvation thru faith alone in the work and person of jesus on our behalf, or else we co operate with god in order to get to a state where we can merit getting save...

Do you have a full assurance that you will be saved, or just hoping that you will merit it on judgement day somehow?

 

The very existance of the myriad of Protestant denominations is largely due to differences with one another over scriptures interpretation. The meaning of the sacred text is not always so simple or obvious now is it? I mean ask members of this board which is it 'limited atonement or unlimited atonement'? Yáll can't even agree on that. Nevertheless, there can be only one true Word of God and only one true interpreter: The apostolic Church which Jesus founded. I don't agree with you that the Cathechism of the Catholic Church often takes scripture out of context. It is a constant accusation that Baptists and other evangelicals make against the Church (and each other btw). Baptists on this board are constantly accusing each other of this offense. A non-believer would think the Holy Spirit must be schizo because each believer claims that their particular private interpretation was revealed to them through the HS. The Freewill Baptists insists the Holy Spirit is responsible for their interpretation of scripture and subsequent doctrinal positions. The Reformed Baptists say the same thing. Both hold radically different doctrines.
I'm glad you did do some reading in Catechism but I did too and came to a completely different conclusion. So have many other former evangelicals as evidenced by so many now entering the Catholic Church as a result of prayerful study. The Catechism of the Catholic Church constantly references scripture to support it's teaching. The copy available in the U.S a fantastic tool in the back called the Index of Citations. With this index you can look to see if the particular scripture passage of interest to you has been cited in the Catechism. If so, it will tell you the exact paragraph in the Catechism where the passage has been expounded on or used in reference to a Church teaching. That in turn can shed light back on the verse.
The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei), contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. Here are some evidential scriptures behind this:
Mt 28:18-20 (Jesus delegates all power to the Apostles) And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.

Lk 10:16 (power to speak with Christ's voice) "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Mt 18:18 (power to legislate) Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mt 18:17 (power to discipline) If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

1 Cor 11:2 (hold fast to traditions I handed on to you) "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. "

2 Thess 2:15 (hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter) So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thess 3:6 (shun those acting not according to tradition) Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

1 Pet 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Now, I hope to have time next week to catch up with the board but I have already put in more time than I should have to post here. Maybe one of the other two Catholics will have time to chime in.

 

Again, to get most of the catholic doctrines though, you MUST appeal to either papel decrees, or else that ole tradition equals scriptures!

And the mixture of faith and good works done by co operating with grace of God to merit salvation is heresy!

 

To me, this is easy enough to answer, Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost (ask a Freewill Baptist). This happens through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. Nor does that Catholic believe we can 'work our way to heaven'.

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin.

 

Jesus paid it all. All to Him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain. He washed it white as snow.

If one is born again, all sins have been paid--past, present and future--removed as far as the East from the West, never to be remembered.

If not born again, there is a major problem, such a person is guilty of all and unable to pay the price: innocent blood. It is really simple: Jesus paid it all. The best we can do is go to Hell.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

Even sins you are not repentant of? Just some verses for you to consider
1 Cor 15:34:

Proverbs 28:13

Colossians 3:5-6

And pay particular attention to this next verse because Paul is speaking to born again Christians in Galatia: Galatians 5:19-21

Now I want to be clear there is victory over sin and there is repentance. But I don't want to ignore the issue that there are those Christians who have come to faith but wilfully sin and there is forgiveness for them if they repent. However, many don't repent or by rationalization allow for that sin. I believe that this kind of thinking which states my sins are forgiven past, present, and future can lead the person to presumptuous sin. I.e. "Since God forgives all my sin even future ones he'll forgive this sin I'm about to do." I think that is dangerous spiritual territory to be in and ignores why God allows us to be born again in the first place. So that we have victory over sin and death. Which means we can avoid sin and not die but have eternal life. Just something for you to think about.

 

The Cross if Christ is the ONLY channel of Grace God has openned unto sinners and saints though, so those whose faith was placed into jesus right now have eternal life, and will one day be glorified, so why any need for any additional graces, when if one has jesus and his cross, one has it all?

 

God trnslates us from kingdom of satan unto that of jesus, and has eternally sealed us by the Spirit of promise, so are you aying here really saved persons can forfeit that?

And catholics say that Motal sin can undo that salvation, so does that mean there are sins we can commit that the blood of jesus cannot atone for?

 

You are confusing justification with sanctification as all Catholics do routinely, and you are ignoring the Biblical distinction between a true and false profession is God's effectual work in the believer.

John 6:39 clearly and explicitly states that not one "of all" those given to the Son by the Father shall be lost - not one. Furthermore, the responsibility to keep them from being lost is not that of the one being given to Chirist, but that responsibility for their eternal security is placed squarely by the Father on the Son - Jn. 6:38. This is the Father's will concerning the responsibility given to the Son, that "of all" the Father gave him, HE (the son) should lose "NOTHING."

However, in the very same context we find that not all professors had been given to the Son (Jn. 6:64-65) including the most famous false professor - Judas as he was a demon from the beginning and the "son of perdition." One way that false professors are manifest is leaving the faith (1 Jn. 2:19). Other ways they are known is through preaching "another gospel" as do Catholics. Other ways they are known is their life of ungodliness. However, concerning true believers Christ is the author and FINISHER of their faith (Heb. 12:2) and what God begins in true believers he finishes (Philp. 1:6) for in true believers it is "God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Philip. 2:13).

 

if one really examines RCC theology on salvation, it seems to be one must be sauctified enough by co operating with God in the sacraments in order to have able to see them meriting salvation in the end, and that is NOT Pauline justification!
A Catholic cannot really have peace with god in this life, as have they done well enough with his graces to merit that decree of now can be granted eternal life?

 

The problem with your supposition is that none of the verses which I am referring even mentions Justificaton. It is clear in each of the passages that it is referring to sins which is acted upon by the believer in disobedience to God. Therefore, you have brought Justification into the discussion erroneously bringing up another topic all together out of the context of the discussion and the scripture verses quoted. Therefore, it is not I nor Catholics who have confused Justification with Sanctification but rather you have.
The problem as I see it by applying the verses you have quoted as you did, is absolve the believer of any responsibility for any of their actions. I believe the scriptures as they are written that God is the author and finisher of our faith as long as we remain faithful to him. To say, as you have, that it is God's responsibility alone to keep you from sin is to lay the blame for all your sins committed as a believer (not prior to faith) directly on God. Thus in short you can say, applying the verses as you have, "Since, God is in charge of my faith the fact that I have committed adultery is not my fault rather that is just an area of Sanctification which God hasn't dealt with yet in my life. And until He does I won't be able to stop". Ultimately, this thinking lays at the feet of God blame for your sins committed as a believer.
Consider Jesus teaching: "Remain in me, as I remain in you...anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned." John 15:4;6

 

Wow...what goes around comes around..... look at all these lurkers cralling outa the woodwork! Magic Words, "Roman Catholic Church":laugh: