Pope Pius XII "creates" doctrine out of THIN AIR!

Ellen White, Great Controversy

Liberty of Conscience Threatened
Romanism is now regarded by Protestants with far greater favor than in former years. In those countries where Catholicism is not in the ascendancy, and the papists are taking a conciliatory course in order to gain influence, there is an increasing indifference concerning the doctrines that separate the reformed churches from the papal hierarchy; the opinion is gaining ground that, after all, we do not differ so widely upon vital points as has been supposed, and that a little concession on our part will bring us into a better understanding with Rome. The time was when Protestants placed a high value upon the liberty of conscience which had been so dearly purchased. They taught their children to abhor popery and held that to seek harmony with Rome would be disloyalty to God. But how widely different are the sentiments now expressed!

The defenders of the papacy declare that the church has been maligned, and the Protestant world are inclined to accept the statement. Many urge that it is unjust to judge the church of today by the abominations and absurdities that marked her reign during the centuries of ignorance and darkness. They excuse her horrible cruelty as the result of the barbarism of the times and plead that the influence of modern civilization has changed her sentiments.

Page 564
Have these persons forgotten the claim of infallibility put forth for eight hundred years by this haughty power? So far from being relinquished, this claim was affirmed in the nineteenth century with greater positiveness than ever before. As Rome asserts that the "church never erred; nor will it, according to the Scriptures, ever err " (John L. von Mosheim, Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, book 3, century II, part 2, chapter 2, section 9, note 17), how can she renounce the principles which governed her course in past ages?

The papal church will never relinquish her claim to infallibility. All that she has done in her persecution of those who reject her dogmas she holds to be right; and would she not repeat the same acts, should the opportunity be presented? Let the restraints now imposed by secular governments be removed and Rome be reinstated in her former power, and there would speedily be a revival of her tyranny and persecution.

A well-known writer speaks thus of the attitude of the papal hierarchy as regards freedom of conscience, and of the perils which especially threaten the United States from the success of her policy:

"There are many who are disposed to attribute any fear of Roman Catholicism in the United States to bigotry or childishness. Such see nothing in the character and attitude of Romanism that is hostile to our free institutions, or find nothing portentous in its growth. Let us, then, first compare some of the fundamental principles of our government with those of the Catholic Church.

"The Constitution of the United States guarantees liberty of conscience . Nothing is dearer or more fundamental. Pope Pius IX, in his Encyclical Letter of August 15, 1854, said: `The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error--a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state.' The same pope, in his Encyclical Letter of December 8, 1864, anathematized `those who assert the liberty of conscience and of religious

Page 565
worship,' also 'all such as maintain that the church may not employ force.'
"The pacific tone of Rome in the United States does not imply a change of heart. She is tolerant where she is helpless. Says Bishop O'Connor: 'Religious liberty is merely endured until the opposite can be carried into effect without peril to the Catholic world.'. . . The archbishop of St. Louis once said: 'Heresy and unbelief are crimes; and in Christian countries, as in Italy and Spain, for instance, where all the people are Catholics, and where the Catholic religion is an essential part of the law of the land, they are punished as other crimes.'. . .

"Every cardinal, archbishop, and bishop in the Catholic Church takes an oath of allegiance to the pope, in which occur the following words: 'Heretics, schismatics, and rebels to our said lord (the pope), or his aforesaid successors, I will to my utmost persecute and oppose.'"--Josiah Strong, Our Country, ch. 5, pars. 2-4.

It is true that there are real Christians in the Roman Catholic communion. Thousands in that church are serving God according to the best light they have. They are not allowed access to His word, and therefore they do not discern the truth.[* Published in 1888 and 1911. See Appendix.] They have never seen the contrast between a living heart service and a round of mere forms and ceremonies. God looks with pitying tenderness upon these souls, educated as they are in a faith that is delusive and unsatisfying. He will cause rays of light to penetrate the dense darkness that surrounds them. He will reveal to them the truth as it is in Jesus, and many will yet take their position with His people.

But Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined

Page 566
conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants. Look at the growth of ritualism in England and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel.
Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty.

Many Protestants suppose that the Catholic religion is unattractive and that its worship is a dull, meaningless round of ceremony. Here they mistake. While Romanism is based upon deception, it is not a coarse and clumsy imposture. The religious service of the Roman Church is a most impressive ceremonial. Its gorgeous display and solemn rites fascinate the senses of the people and silence the voice of reason and of conscience. The eye is charmed. Magnificent churches, imposing processions, golden altars, jeweled shrines, choice paintings, and exquisite sculpture appeal to the love of beauty. The ear also is captivated. The music is unsurpassed. The rich notes of the deep-toned organ, blending with the melody of many voices as it swells through the lofty domes and pillared aisles of her grand cathedrals, cannot fail to impress the mind with awe and reverence.

This outward splendor, pomp, and ceremony, that only mocks the longings of the sin-sick soul, is an evidence of inward corruption. The religion of Christ needs not such attractions to recommend it. In the light shining from the cross, true Christianity appears so pure and lovely that no

Page 567
external decorations can enhance its true worth. It is the beauty of holiness, a meek and quiet spirit, which is of value with God.
Brilliancy of style is not necessarily an index of pure, elevated thought. High conceptions of art, delicate refinement of taste, often exist in minds that are earthly and sensual. They are often employed by Satan to lead men to forget the necessities of the soul, to lose sight of the future, immortal life, to turn away from their infinite Helper, and to live for this world alone.

A religion of externals is attractive to the unrenewed heart. The pomp and ceremony of the Catholic worship has a seductive, bewitching power, by which many are deceived; and they come to look upon the Roman Church as the very gate of heaven. None but those who have planted their feet firmly upon the foundation of truth, and whose hearts are renewed by the Spirit of God, are proof against her influence. Thousands who have not an experimental knowledge of Christ will be led to accept the forms of godliness without the power. Such a religion is just what the multitudes desire.

The church's claim to the right to pardon leads the Romanist to feel at liberty to sin; and the ordinance of confession, without which her pardon is not granted, tends also to give license to evil. He who kneels before fallen man, and opens in confession the secret thoughts and imaginations of his heart, is debasing his manhood and degrading every noble instinct of his soul. In unfolding the sins of his life to a priest,--an erring, sinful mortal, and too often corrupted with wine and licentiousness,--his standard of character is lowered, and he is defiled in consequence. His thought of God is degraded to the likeness of fallen humanity, for the priest stands as a representative of God. This degrading confession of man to man is the secret spring from which has flowed much of the evil that is defiling the world and fitting it for the final destruction. Yet to him who loves self-indulgence,

Page 568
it is more pleasing to confess to a fellow mortal than to open the soul to God. It is more palatable to human nature to do penance than to renounce sin; it is easier to mortify the flesh by sackcloth and nettles and galling chains than to crucify fleshly lusts. Heavy is the yoke which the carnal heart is willing to bear rather than bow to the yoke of Christ.
There is a striking similarity between the Church of Rome and the Jewish Church at the time of Christ's first advent. While the Jews secretly trampled upon every principle of the law of God, they were outwardly rigorous in the observance of its precepts, loading it down with exactions and traditions that made obedience painful and burdensome. As the Jews professed to revere the law, so do Romanists claim to reverence the cross. They exalt the symbol of Christ's sufferings, while in their lives they deny Him whom it represents.

Papists place crosses upon their churches, upon their altars, and upon their garments. Everywhere is seen the insignia of the cross. Everywhere it is outwardly honored and exalted. But the teachings of Christ are buried beneath a mass of senseless traditions, false interpretations, and rigorous exactions. The Saviour's words concerning the bigoted Jews, apply with still greater force to the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church: "They bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." Matthew 23:4. Conscientious souls are kept in constant terror fearing the wrath of an offended God, while many of the dignitaries of the church are living in luxury and sensual pleasure.

The worship of images and relics, the invocation of saints, and the exaltation of the pope are devices of Satan to attract the minds of the people from God and from His Son. To accomplish their ruin, he endeavors to turn their attention from Him through whom alone they can find salvation. He will direct them to any object that can be substituted for the One who has said: "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and

Page 569
are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28.
It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. His sophistry lessens the obligation of the divine law and gives men license to sin. At the same time he causes them to cherish false conceptions of God so that they regard Him with fear and hate rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator; it is embodied in systems of religion and expressed in modes of worship. Thus the minds of men are blinded, and Satan secures them as his agents to war against God. By perverted conceptions of the divine attributes, heathen nations were led to believe human sacrifices necessary to secure the favor of Deity; and horrible cruelties have been perpetrated under the various forms of idolatry.

The Roman Catholic Church, uniting the forms of paganism and Christianity, and, like paganism, misrepresenting the character of God, had resorted to practices no less cruel and revolting. In the days of Rome's supremacy there were instruments of torture to compel assent to her doctrines. There was the stake for those who would not concede to her claims. There were massacres on a scale that will never be known until revealed in the judgment. Dignitaries of the church studied, under Satan their master, to invent means to cause the greatest possible torture and not end the life of the victim. In many cases the infernal process was repeated to the utmost limit of human endurance, until nature gave up the struggle, and the sufferer hailed death as a sweet release.

Such was the fate of Rome's opponents. For her adherents she had the discipline of the scourge, of famishing hunger, of bodily austerities in every conceivable, heart-sickening form. To secure the favor of Heaven, penitents violated the laws of God by violating the laws of nature. They were taught to sunder the ties which He has formed to bless and gladden man's earthly sojourn. The churchyard contains millions of

Page 570
victims who spent their lives in vain endeavors to subdue their natural affections, to repress, as offensive to God, every thought and feeling of sympathy with their fellow creatures.
If we desire to understand the determined cruelty of Satan, manifested for hundreds of years, not among those who never heard of God, but in the very heart and throughout the extent of Christendom, we have only to look at the history of Romanism. Through this mammoth system of deception the prince of evil achieves his purpose of bringing dishonor to God and wretchedness to man. And as we see how he succeeds in disguising himself and accomplishing his work through the leaders of the church, we may better understand why he has so great antipathy to the Bible. If that Book is read, the mercy and love of God will be revealed; it will be seen that He lays upon men none of these heavy burdens. All that He asks is a broken and contrite heart, a humble, obedient spirit.

Christ gives no example in His life for men and women to shut themselves in monasteries in order to become fitted for heaven. He has never taught that love and sympathy must be repressed. The Saviour's heart overflowed with love. The nearer man approaches to moral perfection, the keener are his sensibilities, the more acute is his perception of sin, and the deeper his sympathy for the afflicted. The pope claims to be the vicar of Christ; but how does his character bear comparison with that of our Saviour? Was Christ ever known to consign men to the prison or the rack because they did not pay Him homage as the King of heaven? Was His voice heard condemning to death those who did not accept Him? When He was slighted by the people of a Samaritan village, the apostle John was filled with indignation, and inquired: "Lord, wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?" Jesus looked with pity upon His disciple, and rebuked his harsh spirit, saying: "The Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:54, 56. How different from

Page 571
the spirit manifested by Christ is that of His professed vicar.
The Roman Church now presents a fair front to the world, covering with apologies her record of horrible cruelties. She has clothed herself in Christlike garments; but she is unchanged. Every principle of the papacy that existed in past ages exists today. The doctrines devised in the darkest ages are still held. Let none deceive themselves. The papacy that Protestants are now so ready to honor is the same that ruled the world in the days of the Reformation, when men of God stood up, at the peril of their lives, to expose her iniquity. She possesses the same pride and arrogant assumption that lorded it over kings and princes, and claimed the prerogatives of God. Her spirit is no less cruel and despotic now than when she crushed out human liberty and slew the saints of the Most High.

The papacy is just what prophecy declared that she would be, the apostasy of the latter times. 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4. It is a part of her policy to assume the character which will best accomplish her purpose; but beneath the variable appearance of the chameleon she conceals the invariable venom of the serpent. "Faith ought not to be kept with heretics, nor persons suspected of heresy" (Lenfant, volume 1, page 516), she declares. Shall this power, whose record for a thousand years is written in the blood of the saints, be now acknowledged as a part of the church of Christ?

It is not without reason that the claim has been put forth in Protestant countries that Catholicism differs less widely from Protestantism than in former times. There has been a change; but the change is not in the papacy. Catholicism indeed resembles much of the Protestantism that now exists, because Protestantism has so greatly degenerated since the days of the Reformers.

As the Protestants churches have been seeking the favor of the world, false charity has blinded their eyes. They do not see but that it is right to believe good of all evil, and as the inevitable result they will finally believe evil of all good.

Page 572
Instead of standing in defense of the faith once delivered to the saints, they are now, as it were, apologizing to Rome for their uncharitable opinion of her, begging pardon for their bigotry.
A large class, even of those who look upon Romanism with no favor, apprehend little danger from her power and influence. Many urge that the intellectual and moral darkness prevailing during the Middle Ages favored the spread of her dogmas, superstitions, and oppression, and that the greater intelligence of modern times, the general diffusion of knowledge, and the increasing liberality in matters of religion forbid a revival of intolerance and tyranny. The very thought that such a state of things will exist in this enlightened age is ridiculed. It is true that great light, intellectual, moral, and religious, is shining upon this generation. In the open pages of God's Holy Word, light from heaven has been shed upon the world. But it should be remembered that the greater the light bestowed, the greater the darkness of those who pervert and reject it.

A prayerful study of the Bible would show Protestants the real character of the papacy and would cause them to abhor and to shun it; but many are so wise in their own conceit that they feel no need of humbly seeking God that they may be led into the truth. Although priding themselves on their enlightenment, they are ignorant both of the Scriptures and of the power of God. They must have some means of quieting their consciences, and they seek that which is least spiritual and humiliating. What they desire is a method of forgetting God which shall pass as a method of remembering Him. The papacy is well adapted to meet the wants of all these. It is prepared for two classes of mankind, embracing nearly the whole world--those who would be saved by their merits, and those who would be saved in their sins. Here is the secret of its power.

A day of great intellectual darkness has been shown to be favorable to the success of the papacy. It will yet be

Page 573
demonstrated that a day of great intellectual light is equally favorable for its success. In past ages, when men were without God's word and without the knowledge of the truth, their eyes were blindfolded, and thousands were ensnared, not seeing the net spread for their feet. In this generation there are many whose eyes become dazzled by the glare of human speculations, "science falsely so called;" they discern not the net, and walk into it as readily as if blindfolded. God designed that man's intellectual powers should be held as a gift from his Maker and should be employed in the service of truth and righteousness; but when pride and ambition are cherished, and men exalt their own theories above the word of God, then intelligence can accomplish greater harm than ignorance. Thus the false science of the present day, which undermines faith in the Bible, will prove as successful in preparing the way for the acceptance of the papacy, with its pleasing forms, as did the withholding of knowledge in opening the way for its aggrandizement in the Dark Ages.
In the movements now in progress in the United States to secure for the institutions and usages of the church the support of the state, Protestants are following in the steps of papists. Nay, more, they are opening the door for the papacy to regain in Protestant America the supremacy which she has lost in the Old World. And that which gives greater significance to this movement is the fact that the principal object contemplated is the enforcement of Sunday observance--a custom which originated with Rome, and which she claims as the sign of her authority. It is the spirit of the papacy--the spirit of conformity to worldly customs, the veneration for human traditions above the commandments of God--that is permeating the Protestant churches and leading them on to do the same work of Sunday exaltation which the papacy has done before them.

If the reader would understand the agencies to be employed in the soon-coming contest, he has but to trace the record of the means which Rome employed for the same

Page 574
object in ages past. If he would know how papists and Protestants united will deal with those who reject their dogmas, let him see the spirit which Rome manifested toward the Sabbath and its defenders.
Royal edicts, general councils, and church ordinances sustained by secular power were the steps by which the pagan festival attained its position of honor in the Christian world. The first public measure enforcing Sunday observance was the law enacted by Constantine. (A.D. 321; see Appendix.) This edict required townspeople to rest on "the venerable day of the sun," but permitted countrymen to continue their agricultural pursuits. Though virtually a heathen statute, it was enforced by the emperor after his nominal acceptance of Christianity.

The royal mandate not proving a sufficient substitute for divine authority, Eusebius, a bishop who sought the favor of princes, and who was the special friend and flatterer of Constantine, advanced the claim that Christ had transferred the Sabbath to Sunday. Not a single testimony of the Scriptures was produced in proof of the new doctrine. Eusebius himself unwittingly acknowledges its falsity and points to the real authors of the change. "All things," he says, "whatever that it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord's Day."--Robert Cox, Sabbath Laws and Sabbath Duties, page 538. But the Sunday argument, groundless as it was, served to embolden men in trampling upon the Sabbath of the Lord. All who desired to be honored by the world accepted the popular festival.

As the papacy became firmly established, the work of Sunday exaltation was continued. For a time the people engaged in agricultural labor when not attending church, and the seventh day was still regarded as the Sabbath. But steadily a change was effected. Those in holy office were forbidden to pass judgment in any civil controversy on the Sunday. Soon after, all persons, of whatever rank, were commanded to refrain from common labor on pain of a fine for freemen and

Page 575
stripes in the case of servants. Later it was decreed that rich men should be punished with the loss of half of their estates; and finally, that if still obstinate they should be made slaves. The lower classes were to suffer perpetual banishment.
Miracles also were called into requisition. Among other wonders it was reported that as a husbandman who was about to plow his field on Sunday cleaned his plow with an iron, the iron stuck fast in his hand, and for two years he carried it about with him, "to his exceeding great pain and shame."--Francis West, Historical and Practical Discourse on the Lord's Day, page 174.

Later the pope gave directions that the parish priest should admonish the violators of Sunday and wish them to go to church and say their prayers, lest they bring some great calamity on themselves and neighbors. An ecclesiastical council brought forward the argument, since so widely employed, even by Protestants, that because persons had been struck by lightning while laboring on Sunday, it must be the Sabbath. "It is apparent," said the prelates, "how high the displeasure of God was upon their neglect of this day." An appeal was then made that priests and ministers, kings and princes, and all faithful people "use their utmost endeavors and care that the day be restored to its honor, and, for the credit of Christianity, more devoutly observed for the time to come."--Thomas Morer, Discourse in Six Dialogues on the Name, Notion, and Observation of the Lord's Day, page 271.

The decrees of councils proving insufficient, the secular authorities were besought to issue an edict that would strike terror to the hearts of the people and force them to refrain from labor on the Sunday. At a synod held in Rome, all previous decisions were reaffirmed with greater force and solemnity. They were also incorporated into the ecclesiastical law and enforced by the civil authorities throughout nearly all Christendom. (See Heylyn, History of the Sabbath, pt. 2, ch. 5, sec. 7.)

Page 576
Still the absence of Scriptural authority for Sundaykeeping occasioned no little embarrassment. The people questioned the right of their teachers to set aside the positive declaration of Jehovah, "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God," in order to honor the day of the sun. To supply the lack of Bible testimony, other expedients were necessary. A zealous advocate of Sunday, who about the close of the twelfth century visited the churches of England, was resisted by faithful witnesses for the truth; and so fruitless were his efforts that he departed from the country for a season and cast about him for some means to enforce his teachings. When he returned, the lack was supplied, and in his after labors he met with greater success. He brought with him a roll purporting to be from God Himself, which contained the needed command for Sunday observance, with awful threats to terrify the disobedient. This precious document-- as base a counterfeit as the institution it supported--was said to have fallen from heaven and to have been found in Jerusalem, upon the altar of St. Simeon, in Golgotha. But, in fact, the pontifical palace at Rome was the source whence it proceeded. Frauds and forgeries to advance the power and prosperity of the church have in all ages been esteemed lawful by the papal hierarchy.

The roll forbade labor from the ninth hour, three o'clock, on Saturday afternoon, till sunrise on Monday; and its authority was declared to be confirmed by many miracles. It was reported that persons laboring beyond the appointed hour were stricken with paralysis. A miller who attempted to grind his corn, saw, instead of flour, a torrent of blood come forth, and the mill wheel stood still, notwithstanding the strong rush of water. A woman who placed dough in the oven found it raw when taken out, though the oven was very hot. Another who had dough prepared for baking at the ninth hour, but determined to set it aside till Monday, found, the next day, that it had been made into loaves and baked by divine power. A man who baked bread after the ninth hour

Page 577
on Saturday found, when he broke it the next morning, that blood started therefrom. By such absurd and superstitious fabrications did the advocates of Sunday endeavor to establish its sacredness. (See Roger de Hoveden, Annals, vol. 2, pp. 528-530.)
In Scotland, as in England, a greater regard for Sunday was secured by uniting with it a portion of the ancient Sabbath. But the time required to be kept holy varied. An edict from the king of Scotland declared that "Saturday from twelve at noon ought to be accounted holy," and that no man, from that time till Monday morning, should engage in worldly business.--Morer, pages 290, 291.

But notwithstanding all the efforts to establish Sunday sacredness, papists themselves publicly confessed the divine authority of the Sabbath and the human origin of the institution by which it had been supplanted. In the sixteenth century a papal council plainly declared: "Let all Christians remember that the seventh day was consecrated by God, and hath been received and observed, not only by the Jews, but by all others who pretend to worship God; though we Christians have changed their Sabbath into the Lord's Day."-- Ibid., pages 281, 282. Those who were tampering with the divine law were not ignorant of the character of their work. They were deliberately setting themselves above God.

A striking illustration of Rome's policy toward those who disagree with her was given in the long and bloody persecution of the Waldenses, some of whom were observers of the Sabbath. Others suffered in a similar manner for their fidelity to the fourth commandment. The history of the churches of Ethiopia and Abyssinia is especially significant. Amid the gloom of the Dark Ages, the Christians of Central Africa were lost sight of and forgotten by the world, and for many centuries they enjoyed freedom in the exercise of their faith. But at last Rome learned of their existence, and the emperor of Abyssinia was soon beguiled into an acknowledgment of the pope as the vicar of Christ. Other concessions followed.

Page 578
An edict was issued forbidding the observance of the Sabbath under the severest penalties. (See Michael Geddes, Church History of Ethiopia, pages 311, 312.) But papal tyranny soon became a yoke so galling that the Abyssinians determined to break it from their necks. After a terrible struggle the Romanists were banished from their dominions, and the ancient faith was restored. The churches rejoiced in their freedom, and they never forgot the lesson they had learned concerning the deception, the fanaticism, and the despotic power of Rome. Within their solitary realm they were content to remain, unknown to the rest of Christendom.
The churches of Africa held the Sabbath as it was held by the papal church before her complete apostasy. While they kept the seventh day in obedience to the commandment of God, they abstained from labor on the Sunday in conformity to the custom of the church. Upon obtaining supreme power, Rome had trampled upon the Sabbath of God to exalt her own; but the churches of Africa, hidden for nearly a thousand years, did not share in this apostasy. When brought under the sway of Rome, they were forced to set aside the true and exalt the false sabbath; but no sooner had they regained their independence than they returned to obedience to the fourth commandment. (See Appendix .)

These records of the past clearly reveal the enmity of Rome toward the true Sabbath and its defenders, and the means which she employs to honor the institution of her creating. The word of God teaches that these scenes are to be repeated as Roman Catholics and Protestants shall unite for the exaltation of the Sunday.

The prophecy of Revelation 13 declares that the power represented by the beast with lamblike horns shall cause "the earth and them which dwell therein" to worship the papacy --there symbolized by the beast "like unto a leopard." The beast with two horns is also to say "to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast;" and,

Page 579
furthermore, it is to command all, "both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond," to receive the mark of the beast. Revelation 13:11-16. It has been shown that the United States is the power represented by the beast with lamblike horns, and that this prophecy will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance, which Rome claims as the special acknowledgment of her supremacy. But in this homage to the papacy the United States will not be alone. The influence of Rome in the countries that once acknowledged her dominion is still far from being destroyed. And prophecy foretells a restoration of her power. "I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Verse 3. The infliction of the deadly wound points to the downfall of the papacy in 1798. After this, says the prophet, "his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Paul states plainly that the "man of sin" will continue until the second advent. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8. To the very close of time he will carry forward the work of deception. And the revelator declares, also referring to the papacy: "All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life." Revelation 13:8. In both the Old and the New World, the papacy will receive homage in the honor paid to the Sunday institution, that rests solely upon the authority of the Roman Church.
Since the middle of the nineteenth century, students of prophecy in the United States have presented this testimony to the world. In the events now taking place is seen a rapid advance toward the fulfillment of the prediction. With Protestant teachers there is the same claim of divine authority for Sundaykeeping, and the same lack of Scriptural evidence, as with the papal leaders who fabricated miracles to supply the place of a command from God. The assertion that God's judgments are visited upon men for their violation of the

Page 580
Sunday-sabbath, will be repeated; already it is beginning to be urged. And a movement to enforce Sunday observance is fast gaining ground.
Marvelous in her shrewdness and cunning is the Roman Church. She can read what is to be. She bides her time, seeing that the Protestant churches are paying her homage in their acceptance of the false sabbath and that they are preparing to enforce it by the very means which she herself employed in bygone days. Those who reject the light of truth will yet seek the aid of this self-styled infallible power to exalt an institution that originated with her. How readily she will come to the help of Protestants in this work it is not difficult to conjecture. Who understands better than the papal leaders how to deal with those who are disobedient to the church?

The Roman Catholic Church, with all its ramifications throughout the world, forms one vast organization under the control, and designed to serve the interests, of the papal see. Its millions of communicants, in every country on the globe, are instructed to hold themselves as bound in allegiance to the pope. Whatever their nationality or their government, they are to regard the authority of the church as above all other. Though they may take the oath pledging their loyalty to the state, yet back of this lies the vow of obedience to Rome, absolving them from every pledge inimical to her interests.

History testifies of her artful and persistent efforts to insinuate herself into the affairs of nations; and having gained a foothold, to further her own aims, even at the ruin of princes and people. In the year 1204, Pope Innocent III extracted from Peter II, king of Arragon, the following extraordinary oath: "I, Peter, king of Arragonians, profess and promise to be ever faithful and obedient to my lord, Pope Innocent, to his Catholic successors, and the Roman Church, and faithfully to preserve my kingdom in his obedience, defending the Catholic faith, and persecuting heretical pravity." --John Dowling, The History of Romanism, b. 5, ch. 6, sec.

Page 581
55. This is in harmony with the claims regarding the power of the Roman pontiff "that it is lawful for him to depose emperors" and "that he can absolve subjects from their allegiance to unrighteous rulers."--Mosheim, b. 3, cent. 11, pt. 2, ch. 2, sec. 9, note 17. (See also Appendix .)
And let it be remembered, it is the boast of Rome that she never changes. The principles of Gregory VII and Innocent III are still the principles of the Roman Catholic Church. And had she but the power, she would put them in practice with as much vigor now as in past centuries. Protestants little know what they are doing when they propose to accept the aid of Rome in the work of Sunday exaltation. While they are bent upon the accomplishment of their purpose, Rome is aiming to re-establish her power, to recover her lost supremacy. Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state; that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured.

God's word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever shall believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution.

 

Do I need my library card to read that reply, Claudia? You were right, though. You don't reply to people.

God bless,

Grant

 

Grant, Thessalonian, consider what you say in the Rosary. Who do you ask to be with you? Who do you ask to make you 'worthy' of Christ? Who do you ask to intercede for you? Who is "Queen of Heaven"? How many churches are dedicated to Mary? How many to the Holy Spirit?

I think if you look at actual Catholic practices, you will see I am right. Or if you can't see that, perhaps someone else reading this thread will.

 

As a deovtion to my spiritual mother, who leads me and points me to Christ, as well as to develop a fuller understanding of His life, passion, and resurrection.

To "be with me?" I don't recall ever asking Mary to "be with me."

Actually, it's "worthy of the PROMISES of Christ." So there goes that argument...

Lots of people. Mary is one of them.

Mary.

I've seen very few, if any, churches that are called "Holy Spirit INSERT_DENOMINATION Church." I hardly think it has anything to do with lack of love for the Holy Spirit or greater love for Mary.

Nope. And hopefully, nope.

God bless,

Grant

 

Gracesaves

You probably already know this but in case you don't.

I read that SDA theology teaches that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, and the pope is the anti-christ. They perceive any attempt to defend the Church as an attack on their theology. They literalily cannot be SDA unless they continue to be strongly anti-Catholic.

 

Heya,

Most denominations have something like this in their core beliefs, though some of them don't actively promote it (LCMS Lutherans, for instance). I figure its more up to the individual, but okay.

God bless,

Grant

 

Here is a bit for those who are denying the supremacy given Mary as an effectual member of the Trinity:


Queen over all things(1), we bless you for your complete adherence to your Son's work(2) in being co-redemptress of mankind(3) in union with Him on the cross(4). We invoke you under the names of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix(5), mediator of every grace from God and Christ to us(6). Mary, you are the exemplary realization of the Church(7). By your prayers, you will deliver our souls from death(8), the manifold intercession of your saving office bringing us the gifts of eternal salvation(9). Mary, you are the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise you shine forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God(10)

References :
(1) The new catechism of the Catholic church, section 2, paragraph 6, 966
(2) The new catechism of the Catholic church, section 2, paragraph 6, 967
(3) Redemptoris mater (On the blessed virgin Mary in the life of the pilgrim church), Encyclical of Pope John Paul II promulgated on March 25, 1987.
(4) The new catechism of the Catholic church, section 2, paragraph 6, 964
(5) The new catechism of the Catholic church, section 2, paragraph 6, 969
(6) Iucunda Semper Expectatione (On the Rosary), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1894.
(7) The new catechism of the Catholic church, section 2, paragraph 6, 967
(8) The new catechism of the Catholic church, section 2, paragraph 6, 966
(9) The new catechism of the Catholic church, section 2, paragraph 6, 969
(10) The new catechism of the Catholic church, section 2, paragraph 6, 972

This was posted on another forum some time ago and I saved it.

The following I wrote, also some time ago:

===========

[all emphases in Scripture verses are the author's. Quotes are taken from the New International Version for the sake of clarity of English. The KJV or any other standard translation will not be different in meaning and their translations may be freely used in place of the NIV here.]


When the subject of idolatry is brought up to Catholics, they deny it. When the subject of worshiping Mary is broached, it is said only to be veneration offered to her. But the truth of the matter is that the Roman Catholic Church ascribes attributes, powers, and work to Mary that the Bible ascribes only to God. A quick and clear proof of this may be found in the Rosary, which all Catholics pray, with special attention paid to the closing lines.

First of all when Catholics pray the Rosary, here is what is recited:
The Apostles' Creed -- one time
The Lord's Prayer -- six times
"Glory be...." -- six times

BUT
"Hail Mary...." 53 times

First of all, that certainly shows who has primacy!


Now, let's look at the conclusion to the Rosary:


Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!

The title of Queen came into the Catholic Church by way of paganism. It is only there that any "Queen" in
heaven or of heaven exists. There is no Queen in or of heaven in any Judeo or Christian theology. It is an entirely pagan concept and, as such, Catholics are subscribing to pagan terminology and a pagan practice.

The following verses are from Jeremiah 7:16-19; and 44:15-28

So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offering to other gods to provoke me to anger. But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?

...Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present -- a large assembly -- and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine."

The women added, "When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?"

Then Jeremiah said to all the people, both men and women, who were answering him, "Did not the LORD remember and think about the incense burned in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem by you and your fathers, your kings and your officials and the people of the land? When the LORD could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became an object of cursing and a desolate waste without inhabitants, as it is today. Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the LORD and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see."

Then Jeremiah said to all the people, including the women, "Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of Judah in Egypt. This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel says: You and your wives have shown by your actions what you promised when you said, 'We will certainly carry out the vows we made to burn incense and pour out drink offerings to the Queen of Heaven.

"Go ahead then, do what you promised! Keep your vows! But hear the word of the LORD, all Jews living in Egypt: 'I swear by my great name,' says the LORD, 'that no one from Judah living anywhere in Egypt will ever again invoke my name or swear, "As surely as the Sovereign LORD lives". For I am watching over them fore harm, not for good; the Jews in Egypt will perish by the sword and famine until they are all destroyed. Those who escape the sword and return to the land of Judah from Egypt will be very few. Then the whole remnant of Judah who came to live in Egypt will know whose word will stand -- mine or theirs.'"


Nor does mercy have a mother. It is an original attribute of God -- the eternal God. As Mary herself said, "His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation." (Luke 1:50)

And hear what Peter himself has to say: But you [God's elect, the believers] are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

.
our life, our sweetness, our hope

Is she really that for you? Let's see what the Bible says,

about LIFE:

John 14:6 – I am the way, the truth and the LIFE... -- Jesus is talking there.

Or go back to John 1:4 -- In him [the Lord Jesus Christ] was life, and that life was the light of men.

Acts 17:24-25 -- The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

Romans 6:23 -- For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Corinthians 3:6 -- He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Colossians 2:3-4 -- For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

2 Timothy 1:9b-10 -- This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.


About SWEETNESS

Psalm 119:103, speaking of God's Law, says --
How sweet are your words to my taste,
sweeter than honey to my mouth!


About HOPE

Romans 15:13 --May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 1:1 -- Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope...

1 Timothy 4:9-10 -- This is a trustworthy saying that deserved full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

1 Timothy 5:5 -- The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help.

And from Peter himself, 1 Peter 1:20-21 -- He [Christ Jesus] was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

Thus, Biblically, God Himself is our life and our hope, and His Law -- His Word -- our sweetness. By ascribing these qualities to Mary, the Roman Catholic Church is blasphemously ascribing to her the qualities only God has.

To continue with the words Catholics pray, though:

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in the valley of tears.

What an insult to God! Look at what His Word says, in contrast:

Romans 8:28 -- And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

John 15:11 -- I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. Those words are from our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 15:13 (again)-- May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5:22 -- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Philippians 1:25-26 -- Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.

1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 -- Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:8 -- Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.


.
Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us;

Advocate? Let's see what the Bible says:

Job 16:19-21 --
Even now my witness is in heaven;
my advocate is on high.
My intercessor is my friend
as my eyes pour out tears to God;
on behalf of man he pleads with God
as a man pleads for his friend.

Hebrews 7:23-25 -- Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Did Job know about the coming Messiah? He certainly did. It is from him we hear the words, "I know that my Redeemer lives." in Job 19:25. We have an Advocate and Intercessor who saves us completely. We need no other and our Lord needs no help.


.
and after this our exile show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus;

1 John 3:2 -- Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

1 Corinthians 1:7-9 -- Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.


Born again Christians do not need anyone to SHOW them Jesus! They already are indwelt by the precious Holy Spirit, as Paul states so clearly in Romans 8:9 --"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." It is true that there will come a time when we will see Him as He is, which is not this time yet. But when that happens, Mary will have no part in facilitating it. The sheep do not need anything but proximity to see the Shepherd.

.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

In Genesis 2:24, we read -- For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

In Matthew 1:20-25, we read,
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph
son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her of
from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he
will save his people from their sins."
All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" -- which means, "God with us."
When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Now, in 1 Corinthians 7:3-5, we read
The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Now go to Hebrews 13:4 -- Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure...

If Mary did not have sexual intercourse with her husband Joseph she was defiling the marriage bed and the meaning of marriage as intended by God. Mary was not a virgin after Jesus was born. She was a normal wife and had normal children, as mentioned in Matthew 13.

.
Pray for us, O holy mother of God.

First of all, we already have the Holy Spirit who prays for us when we don't know what we ought to pray ourselves -- In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. (Romans 8:26)

So to ask Mary to pray for us is an insult to the Holy Spirit, for that is HIS function -- or part of it.

Secondly, God has no mother. The term "mother of God" is entirely pagan and can be traced all the way back to ancient Babylon and the great apostasy. Mary was the mother of Jesus' earthly body, and that is all. She was in no way, shape, or form, the progenitor of His deity!

.
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Made worthy? We are NEVER worthy of anything from Christ. The whole point of the Christian message and the whole point of Christ's work here was that the only way we have any worthiness at all is through Him and in Him. Apart from our Lord Jesus Christ, we have no worthiness of anything, including His promises.

And keep in mind one other thing -- His promises are promises. Those who are His will receive all that is promised. They cannot be made worthy apart from Him, and once in Him there is no holding back:

For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of
sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are
God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs --heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if
indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
... For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to
separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (from Romans 8)

The Mary that the Rosary is prayed to is ascribed the attributes, powers, and work of God. She is not, in any way, the young woman who gave birth to the infant Jesus that night in Bethlehem about 2000 years ago. The Mary of the Rosary is the same Queen of Heaven the Jews in Egypt were burning incense to. The same Queen who comes down in Roman mythology and Greek mythology, which is present in Egyptian mythology and the Hindu religion. Her original was probably the wife of Nimrod if linguistics is giving us enough of a clue.

The one person the Mary of the Rosary is NOT, is the mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
===================

Please note also these Catholic websites of devotion to Mary and attributing to her the ability to save:

http://olrl.org/pray/threehms.html

http://olrl.org/pray/power.html

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/4152/7dolors.htm

http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/prayer/hailmarypwr.htm

and so it goes.

In the meantime, this is a fascinating page:
http://www.webdesk.com/catholic/prayers/

No prayers to the Father, a few to Christ, a few to the Holy Spirit, and MANY to Mary and many to the various saints.

Nope, Jesus taught us differently. He taught us to pray to our Father. Roman Catholicism just does not jive with biblical Christianity!

 

Because I didn't ask that to start an argument. I want to know where it is in the Bible.

I would think that you know that a SDA church member believes in the Triune God!

Why is that relevant to you telling me where it is in the Bible?

I said SERIOUSLY. That means, I am not trying to be sarcastic, but I SERIOUSLY want to know where it is in the Bible.

Sheesh.

 

That's not entirely accurate.

Here's the truth:

Sunday- Mark of the Beast (on the merit that it is propigated by the Beast)
Beast- Papal Rome (on the merit that it fulfills prophecy)
Pope- Little horn (same as above)
Antichrist- is a spirit, not a person (it was in Rome when John penned Revelation)
Defense of YOUR Church- is just that. NOW if you are saying things that are directed to the SDA and are derogatory, then we take them as attacks on the SDA.
To be a member you need to have the mind of Christ. LOVE ALL.

I am not anti Catholic.

I love Catholics.

I may think that they are decieved, but I still love them.

I don't like what they teach, but I still love them.

I see the Papacy in Rome as the Beast, but I see the members of the Catholic Church as brothers and sisters in Christ who need to come out of her.

Just because there are those who create a perception of the SDA doesn't mean we all feel that way.

Remember that.

God Bless

 

Catholic Friends:

I noticed that someone said before (think it was Bro. Ed) that the Holy Spirit and Mary, are married.

That would make her GOD.

The Father.......................God
The Son..........................God
The Holy Spirit..................God
Mary, married to the HS by law...God

I was a Whitted before I married my husband. When I married him, I took his name. We became one.

My mother was a Baker before she married my dad, she took his name, when she married him. They became one.

IF, IF, IF, Mary, YOUR Queen of Heaven, IS married to the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of GOD. That is JESUS, her own SON, (SICK) then BY LAW (the one that ADAM AND EVE partook of) she is ONE with Him.

Since God is the KING, and Mary is YOUR Queen and according to this sick and disturbing doctrine of demons the HOLY SPIRIT had SEX with Mary to form Jesus, then MARY is part of the God Head.

When 2 people are married to each other they become ONE.

So if Mary is the 'spouse' of the Holy Spirit, then she is ONE with the Holy Spirit, making HER GOD.

This theology alone makes the Catholic Church perveyors of falsehood, and blasphemy.

And you WONDER why we think that the Papacy is the Beast of Revelation?

For cryin out loud people, you don't have a leg to stand on with this rediculous doctrine!

Get out while you have a chance!

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

COME OUT

 

Sister in Christ,

Good luck proving that one.

God bless,

Grant

 

Folks, PLEASE, if you have a rather lengthy response that can be linked to another website, rather than copying and pasting the entire article, cite a link and perhaps quote the relative passages to your debate in your post.

The bandwidth of this site is finite and costly. Whatever conservation efforts can be taken would be appreciated.

Besides, I'm on my third scrolling mouse since joining this site. The other two died of exhaustion.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation. I leave you now to your debate.

Clint Kritzer
Administrator

 

AngelMom,


" I would think that you know that a SDA church member believes in the Triune God!"

That is not the point. We know you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in some form. So do the Jehoviah's witnesses (on offshoot of Seventh Day Adventism by the way) who reject the divinity of Chirst. So do you believe in a subordinate, non-eternal Jesus? That is the issue here. This is not a given with SDA's at all as you imply from my experience.

Blessings.

 

"HOLY SPIRIT had SEX with Mary to form Jesus"

Spirit does not have SEX dear. That is a function of the flesh of humans. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit not by sex with the Holy Spirit. Are you claiming that Mary had sex with the Father? Now that is blaspemy. Further it seems it creates some problems with Mary having other children by Joseph if that is what you believe.

Does God have to create humans with sex? Though that is the normative way, we know that it is not the only way, because Adam and Eve were not created in that way. Further Jesus said he "could raise up son's of Abraham from these stones" so we know God is not limited in his capacity to create life. Also Jesus (who is God if you have any doudts and not a "lesser" or "non-eternal" God as you might think) was the new adam and so this implies that he was a new creation.
Once again, more evidence that you do not believe in the Trinity as held true by Christianity including baptists like Helen for 2000 years.

 

Just bringing this forward again so ruf can see it. Ruf, what is your answer.

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

I wouldn't even dare participate in a discussion wherein my partner in dialogue would actually purport that Catholics place Mary within the Godhead.. and persists.

God bless those who think so, and enjoy your wallowing in ignorance. If that's how low you want to step, enjoy the muck. I'm not going to drag you out of it. You chose it.

 

Carson,

Would you please email me at ghunt_55444@hotmail.com. I have a question for you. Thanks.

Never mind. I see your email is public.

 

Ok, sit down,

Thessalonian,

I am NOT a Jehovah's Witness. I do not care what they believe. They are not an offshoot of the SDA Movement any more than the Presbeterians are an offshoot of the Catholic Church. They have ENTIRELY different doctrines from us.

THE ONLY thing that I have actually seen of theirs that is the same is Sabbath observance.

NOW. Onto the 'point'.

What is YOUR point?

I asked for a Bible reference for a statement made (and it wasn't even made by you).

"God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit"

Now, what that has to do with MY personal belief of the Godhead, is beyond me.

I do not believe the Catholic Trinity.

The way that Carson explains it, I don't agree.

I do believe that there are 3 Co equal, Co eternal parts to God, but I don't see eye to eye with the Catholic version.

It is a whole lot more complicated than a simple yes or no answer and I really don't want to get into it.

Okay?

NOW, if you don't know where that statement is in the Bible, please kindly refrain from answering.

I am looking to know WHERE it is.

Not, where it isn't.

Thank You,
God Bless

 

Sister in Christ,

Good luck proving that one.

God bless,

Grant </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, that would be YOUR place to prove it.

It's your doctrine.

You are Catholic aren't you?

Does your 'rite' not believe that the Holy Spirit is married to Mary?

Last I checked, that is what 'married' means.

God Bless

 

Mom,

You fail to see marriage outside the context of flesh-to-flesh marriage, instead of marriage as God sees marriage. And no, I don't need to prove anything, because this issue is a fabrication of your own that I do not believe and the Church has never taught.

You're on your own, and I won't answer a question that does not pertain to me or my beliefs or those of my Church.

God bless,

Grant