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Pope Pius XII "creates" doctrine out of THIN AIR!

Bro. Curtis

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
Nope. I didn't see her. Not once.

BTW, the Church is the bride of Christ, not the mother of Christians. God's children could not be their own offspring. We will be joint-heirs with Christ. His equal. His bride.

But that's another thread, ain't it ?

Mariolatry is designed by Satanm himself, and I'm sure he laughs with glee everytime someone calls out to Mary, thinking she hears them.

You're right. I detest mariolatry with every fiber of my being. Lies. You cannot prove it from scripture, neither can Carson.

And as long as I see the word "prots" here, your complaints about me being rude are moot.
 
T

trying2understand

New Member
Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Nope. I didn't see her. Not once.

BTW, the Church is the bride of Christ, not the mother of Christians. God's children could not be their own offspring. We will be joint-heirs with Christ. His equal. His bride.

But that's another thread, ain't it ?

Mariolatry is designed by Satanm himself, and I'm sure he laughs with glee everytime someone calls out to Mary, thinking she hears them.

You're right. I detest mariolatry with every fiber of my being. Lies. You cannot prove it from scripture, neither can Carson.

And as long as I see the word "prots" here, your complaints about me being rude are moot.
Click to expand...
Come on, Curtis. Get to work and address the Scripture.
 
Bro. Curtis

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
Originally posted by thessalonian:

I will try to make my point again. The bible talks about martyrdoms and yet stephen's is the only one recorded. So does that mean there were none othres? The statement above says that the actual event of Mary's death, burial, and Assumption was not recorded in scripture or elsewhere specifically. Does that mean it didn't happen.

Maybe not, but should it be preached as doctrine ? As absolute truth ?



There are no altar calls in the Bibie. Do you ever go up front for them. There are no wedding cerimonies in the Bible. Have you been to one. Noone puts a ring on anyone's finger after they have married in the Bible. Do you where one?



We don't preach these as a way to a closer relationship with God. Putting Mary as God's mother ? Just because it can't be disproven ?

Dangerous, bro.



Blessings.
They abound. Yes they do. They abound, forgiveness is plentiful, God delights in mercy, grace is his method, love is the reason. All without any word about Mary.
 
T

thessalonian

New Member
"Maybe not, but should it be preached as doctrine ? As absolute truth ?"

Well in a protestant frame of mind in which one man's interprutation of scripture is as good as another's. Where your are certain your are eternaly secure but cannot be 100% certain that he doctrine of Eternal Security or the other flavor of it, Once Saved always saved are true. Where you are sure that all the Christians are going to be raptured, pre trib even though not one Christian has ever been raptured in the face of intense trial. (By the way you allege these prophetic pre-trib rapture doctrines are in the Bible but there is no conclusive evidence they are true, by their fullfillment.) Where there is no sacred tradition, no magesterium, and noone who can really say for certain what is in the Bible, I suppose I can see why you would ask that question. You know my answer.
 
C

Carson Weber

<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi Brother Curtis,

You wrote, "BTW, the Church is the bride of Christ, not the mother of Christians"

May I suggest reading St. Paul, who speaks of the Church as our mother when he writes, "But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother" (Gal 4:26).

bless you,

Carson
 
N

neal4christ

New Member
May I suggest reading St. Paul, who speaks of the Church as our mother when he writes, "But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother" (Gal 4:26).
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Are you saying that the "Jerusalem above" is a reference to the church? Isn't the church here on earth, just as it was during Paul's time? This appears to be a contrast between the Old Jerusalem (Old Covenant) and the New Jerusalem (New Covenant). Why can't this be a reference to the New Jerusalem, which is in heaven (Rev. 21:2)?

Neal
 
3

3AngelsMom

<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Originally posted by trying2understand:
Carson offered Scripture to support it.

Please respond to the Scripture directly.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Posted by Carson:
The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary can be supported with Scripture.

"Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery" (Rev 11:19-12:2).

As John portrays the appearance of the ark of the covenant in a display of theophany, the ark turns out to be none other than New Ark of the New Covenant: Mary, the Woman prescribed in Genesis 3:15, who is in heaven, body (feet, head, etc.) and soul - and crowned as Queen.

As The Ark held the Decalogue, the Manna, and Aaron's Staff, so Mary held the Word of God, the Bread from Heaven, and our High Priest in her womb for 9 months.

It is Mary who serves as the archetype of Israel and the New Israel, the Church, she who is mother of all Christians (see also John's depiction of the Crucifixion in John 19:26-27) as the Church is the mother of all Christians.

"Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev 12:17).

Our Protestant brothers and sisters can disagree all they want with this interpretation of John's Apocalypsis (I don't mind if they disagree; that's their job it seems), but they must admit that there is no Scriptural support for the Assumption by way of their private interpretation. They cannot say that "there is no Scriptural support for the Assumption" at all.

There is. There it is.
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</font>[/QUOTE]Can I? Please, please, please?

Rev 11:19-12:2
Not about Mary. Jesus is NOT, I repeat, NOT the New Covenant.


Therefore MARY cannot, I repeat, CANNOT be the "ARK" (that is so rediculous) of GOD'S Covenant. The ARK was NOT the Covenant. What was IN the Ark was the Testimony of the Covenant. The Covenant was with MEN. The New Covenant is the same. It is with men. It is not 'in heaven'.
The New Covenant:
Hebrews 8:10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The Law IN our Hearts instead of on stone. Sins remembered no more. Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant. HE is not the Covenant.

Mary is the new Ark? Let's see, the 'old' ark has the testimony IN IT. Mary only had Jesus in her for 9 months, and now He is NOT in her. So she is EMPTY. HOW could she be the 'new' ark if she is empty?

Your reference to the Woman in that verse is also rediculous because Mary couldn't POSSIBLY fulfill all the things that it says about that woman.

Let's see what applies to Mary NOW.

Clothed with the Sun................nope
Moon under her feet.................nope
Crown of twelve stars...............nope
With Child..........................nope
ON Earth............................YUP

Gave birth to a man child...........yup
Child caught up to GOD..............yup
In the wilderness for 1260 days.....NOPE
Persecuted by the dragon............nope
Given wings.........................nope
Protected by God for 1260 days......nope

NOW. Unless I am gravely mistaken, ALL of those must be able to be applied to Mary in order for that to BE referring to Mary.

Since she only fills the shoes of 2 of the qualities, then we CANNOT say that it is her.

Who fulfills ALL of them?

The PURE Church.

On to the other verse you posted:

Rev 12:17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It strikes me as odd that you should post this verse.

You are wanting this verse to be applied to the Catholic Church. You think that YOU are the 'remnant' of 'her' seed.

You can't be.

You don't keep the Commandments of God.

You have the faith in Jesus.

But it has to be both.

The Catholic Church is not the Remnant of her seed.

There is a prophecy in the Bible that the CC does fulfill, but there is no STINKING way, that they can claim the Remnant.

NO WAY.

God Bless
 
C

Carson Weber

<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi Neal,

You asked, "Are you saying that the "Jerusalem above" is a reference to the church?"

Absolutely. Of course, I don't have the time to go into an entire Biblical exposition here, but I will say that Jerusalem as an earthly city serves as a foreshadowing of the heavenly city known as the Church Triumphant.

Isn't the church here on earth, just as it was during Paul's time?

The Church is both earthly and heavenly. It is an eschatological reality that pierces time and space.

"If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (Col 3)

Paul sees our rebirth as sons of God as an already sharing in Christ's resurrection.

Why can't this be a reference to the New Jerusalem, which is in heaven (Rev. 21:2)?

It is. I'm not confining the Church to an earthly reality (and Christianity has shared this vision from the start; re: the Fathers).
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
You asked, "Are you saying that the "Jerusalem above" is a reference to the church?"

Absolutely. Of course, I don't have the time to go into an entire Biblical exposition here, but I will say that Jerusalem as an earthly city serves as a foreshadowing of the heavenly city known as the Church Triumphant.
Click to expand...
Just not in God's Word.

In the Bible - being IN a city is not the same thing as BEING the city.

In the Bible -- having a citizenship of a country or of a city is not to BE the country or to BE the city.

Making that up may help the RCC - but it is not in scripture.

The CITY is the HOME of the saints but it is NOT the saints.

In the city God sits on His golden throne in Rev 21:1-4. It is literal, it is real - just as REAL as God is - the Bible can be believed. It is trustworthy.

The Angels are "real". God is "real" the city is REAL - the lake of Fire is REAL, the wicked are REAL, the 1000 years are REAL, the TWO resurrections are REAL. Read Rev 19 and 20 - it describes the REAL sequence for the end of time.

Trust it. Believe it. Accept it.

Read Gensis 1-3 it describes the REAL account of the creation of the earth in 6 REAL days and a REAL seventh day of rest - a HOLY day (Gen 2:3) made as a memorial of God's creative act. Gen 3 shows a REAL fall of REAL mankind - A REAL Adam and a REAL Eve - REALLY rebelling against a REAL God in a REAL garden and REALLY cast out in the end of that story.

Accept it. Trust it. Believe it.

In Christ,

Bob
 
C

Carson Weber

<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi guys,

All "Amens" and "God's children said" and "Way to go's" aside..

St. Luke to portray Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant in his Gospel through what Biblical scholars term "literary allusion".

In Luke 1:35, the angel Gabriel tells Mary "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you." "Overshadow" here comes from the Greek word "episkiasei", which denotes a bright cloud of glory. It is used in reference to the cloud at the transfiguration of Jesus (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7. Luke 9:34).

This cloud is none other than the Shekinah Glory, the visible Presence of God in the Hebrew Scriptures, which dwelt in the Holy of Holies above the ark of the covenant (Exodus 24:15-16, 40:34-38, 1 Kings 8:10).

The Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures made two centuries before Christ, uses "episkiasei" in Exodus 40:34-35, to describe the Shekhinah's overshadowing of the Temple. Saint Luke, who was quite familiar with the Septuagint, uses the very same word for the Spirit's overshadowing of Mary! The angel Gabriel clearly drew a parallel between God's presence in the Sanctuary and in Mary. She is the new, living Ark chosen to bear the God-Messiah.

St. Luke also draws a parallel between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant in the account of the Visitation (Luke 1:39-52). Compare it to 2 Samuel 6:1-16, where David tries to bring the original Ark into Jerusalem.

David "arose" and headed for "Ba'ale-judah". Mary "arose" and headed for "a city of Judah". David dances before the ark; John leaps in his mother's womb. David says "How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Sa 6:9); Elizabeth says "Who am I, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Lk 1:43). The ark stayed in the house of Obededom for three months (2 Sa 6:11); Mary stayed in Elizabeth's house for three months (Lk 1:56)

The two passages are clearly parallel. The Holy Spirit inspired Luke to draw this parallel, to show that Mary is the New Ark, chosen to bear God. The Ark was a sacred vessel which bore the Divine Presence, Mary is a holy woman who bears the Lord God.

Again, here are the verses:

Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting, because the cloud abode upon it, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. (Ex 40:34-35)

And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. (Lk 1:35)
_

And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Ba'ale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the name of the LORD of hosts who sits enthroned on the cherubim. (2 Sam 6:2)

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah (Luke 1:39)
_

And David was afraid of the Lord that day; and he said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Sam 6:9)

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Lk 1:41-43)
_

And it was told King David, "The Lord has blessed the household of Obed-edom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God." So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom to the city of David with rejoicing; and when those who bore the ark of the Lord had gone six paces, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling. And David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. (2 Sam 6:12-14)

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit... (Lk 1:41)
_

So David was not willing to take the ark of the LORD into the city of David; but David took it aside to the house of O'bed-e'dom the Gittite. And the Ark of the Lord remained in the house of O'bed-edom the Gittite three months; and the LORD blessed O'bed-e'dom and all his household. (2 Samuel 6:10-11)

And Mary remained with her about three months, and returned to her home. (Luke 1:56)

cordially yours in Christ,

Carson

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O (Ark of the) Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which Divinity resides." (Athanasius of Alexandria, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin)

[ March 02, 2003, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
 
3

3AngelsMom

<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Posted by Carson:
The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary can be supported with Scripture.

"Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery" (Rev 11:19-12:2).

As John portrays the appearance of the ark of the covenant in a display of theophany, the ark turns out to be none other than New Ark of the New Covenant: Mary, the Woman prescribed in Genesis 3:15, who is in heaven, body (feet, head, etc.) and soul - and crowned as Queen.

As The Ark held the Decalogue, the Manna, and Aaron's Staff, so Mary held the Word of God, the Bread from Heaven, and our High Priest in her womb for 9 months.

It is Mary who serves as the archetype of Israel and the New Israel, the Church, she who is mother of all Christians (see also John's depiction of the Crucifixion in John 19:26-27) as the Church is the mother of all Christians.

"Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev 12:17).

Our Protestant brothers and sisters can disagree all they want with this interpretation of John's Apocalypsis (I don't mind if they disagree; that's their job it seems), but they must admit that there is no Scriptural support for the Assumption by way of their private interpretation. They cannot say that "there is no Scriptural support for the Assumption" at all.

There is. There it is.


My response that has been ignored:

Rev 11:19-12:2
Not about Mary. Jesus is NOT, I repeat, NOT the New Covenant.


Therefore MARY cannot, I repeat, CANNOT be the "ARK" (that is so rediculous) of GOD'S Covenant. The ARK was NOT the Covenant. What was IN the Ark was the Testimony of the Covenant. The Covenant was with MEN. The New Covenant is the same. It is with men. It is not 'in heaven'.
The New Covenant:
Hebrews 8:10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The Law IN our Hearts instead of on stone. Sins remembered no more. Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant. HE is not the Covenant.

Mary is the new Ark? Let's see, the 'old' ark has the testimony IN IT. Mary only had Jesus in her for 9 months, and now He is NOT in her. So she is EMPTY. HOW could she be the 'new' ark if she is empty?

Your reference to the Woman in that verse is also rediculous because Mary couldn't POSSIBLY fulfill all the things that it says about that woman.

Let's see what applies to Mary NOW.

Clothed with the Sun................nope
Moon under her feet.................nope
Crown of twelve stars...............nope
With Child..........................nope
ON Earth............................YUP

Gave birth to a man child...........yup
Child caught up to GOD..............yup
In the wilderness for 1260 days.....NOPE
Persecuted by the dragon............nope
Given wings.........................nope
Protected by God for 1260 days......nope

NOW. Unless I am gravely mistaken, ALL of those must be able to be applied to Mary in order for that to BE referring to Mary.

Since she only fills the shoes of 2 of the qualities, then we CANNOT say that it is her.

Who fulfills ALL of them?

The PURE Church.

On to the other verse you posted:

Rev 12:17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It strikes me as odd that you should post this verse.

You are wanting this verse to be applied to the Catholic Church. You think that YOU are the 'remnant' of 'her' seed.

You can't be.

You don't keep the Commandments of God.

You have the faith in Jesus.

But it has to be both.

The Catholic Church is not the Remnant of her seed.

There is a prophecy in the Bible that the CC does fulfill, but there is no STINKING way, that they can claim the Remnant.

NO WAY.

God Bless
 
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