Portrait of a Worship Leader

We can agree on that (except the singing part!). I'm just not the one suitable to do so.

love,

Sopranette

 

Role of women

Let me go through one verse that is commonly used as proof text for the belief that women are to be in some sort of submission to men or authority. For purposes of this post I will be using the NASB version of the Bible. It is a better translation in these verses. The portions in the parentheses are my comments.

Eph 5

22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
(The word “subject” does not carry the idea of strict obedience. It means a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". In other words a position of vulnerability. Wives are to be vulnerable to their husbands. Soft hearted and tender keeping an open heart.)
23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
( husband is head of the wife “AS” CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH. Just like Christ is head of the church so husbands ought to be head of the wife. And how does he do that? Like the savior does for us. Nurturing, protecting, giving mercy. Not condemning or lording over her.)
24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
(The church is to be vulnerable to Christ and wives should be the same)
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
(Again showing the attitude of the husband toward his wife)
26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,
30because we are members of His body.
31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.
33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.

These verses have been used to keep women in a role God never intended for them. By misinterpreting and false teaching the Church has been robbed of the blessing and input of the female members of the church.

BTW – I am not a female

 

Here is another of the texts used to put women down.

First it should be established the Historical facts in and about Ephesus where Timothy ministered. This was the hayday of Diana worship and this worship was very strong in the city. One of the attributes of this religion was the practice of Temple prostitution. These women would use sexual skills to control men and gain favor both financial and political. Thee prostitutes also dressed in gaudy flourishes to advertise their profession. The position of Temple prostitute was not only tolerated but promoted as something to be proud of. Because of this these prostitutes were arrogant in attitude about their skills. One of the end results of this lifestyle was that these women were hardened in their hearts.
When the gospel came to Ephesus, many of these prostitutes were being saved but still carried some of their former ways into their new lives. Paul addresses these issues and advises Timothy to deal with them.

1 Tim 2

9Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
10but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
(“submissiveness” carries the concept of being in subjection which again means to be vulnerable and open hearted. Not prideful, arrogant, or hardened in their hearts)
12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
(Here Paul is teaching that these women are not to use their sexual skills to control a man)

This is not about women having spiritual authority or position in the church. It is about these temple prostitutes using their skills to lord over men.

 

All good quotes regarding women's roles in the church and at home. I see only positive things here, not verses opressing women. And if God said these things, then I must trust Him (because He is a loving God) and obey Him (because I cannot foretell the future, especially if I choose to do things my way). I'll admit, I felt frustration concerning these things when I was younger, and so I rebelled by not attending church at all. Since then, I've come to accept God knows the roles we each must take on. I trust He knows what's best for us. I no longer rage against these "opressive" and narrow parameters. I trust, instead. It's not an easy path for women, most of us want to speak up in church, but I keep myself in check, because there are clearly defined rules for us, and it has nothing to do with historical context, either. I never speak aloud in church unless I'm reading from something already written down.
There is a parrellel in ancient Greek mythology; Zeus is constantly surrounded by beautiful godesses, who are jealous, they fight, they manipulate. And yet, who is Zeus' most fond of, among the godesses? Hestia. And why? Because Hestia does only one thing; she tends the fireplace at Mt. Oplympius. She never fights, gossipes, is vain, is jealous, or gets in the middle of feuds. She never demands anything, just does her job, day in day out. There's something to be learned from that.

love,

Sopranette

 

You would equate the way in which God desires us to act with that of the pagan Gods? This is your example?

I am dunbfounded and shocked.

 

If you chose to remain a slave to a man then do so. You have not studied the history or the Greek words used and still think because some trnslator says it you must put on the shackles.

 

Yahoshea, I was making a point. Since Scripture fails to illustrate my point in your eyes, maybe Greek mythology is more your style. Baptist women are not being put down or stifled for following God's commandments, and comparing Baptist men/women relationships and roles to the Taliban's, and to sexual favors, was totally out of line! And saying women like us just don't know any better is an insult, too. I should have gotten upset over these comments, but I didn't. You failed to see that, too. I don't need you to "free" me from what God has commanded. I am not in shackles. No man is holding me down, but I need men in authority to help guide me. Jesus freed me, and I am totally at peace with His instruction now, thank you very much. I hope you find the same, instead of telling women to rebel.

Good night,

Sopranette

 

What is the Church that you speak of being silent in? According the Studylight.org’s Greek Lexicon the church is the following.
an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

What amazes me is the situational ethics being demonstrated here.

Note in the definition above there is no mention of those Christians having to meet in person or being within the same building. It is simply a gathering of the saints. Could be in the same building or EVEN ONLINE.
So what baffles me is how do you justify speaking on this board? Are you going to split the hair by saying this is writing instead of verbally speaking? Does that mean you could take a series of cue cards for members of your church to read and that would be OK?

I really do understand. I get on line because I am housebound and disabled. It is my way to fellowship. Here I can share my opinions freely because I cannot attend a church right now. So you ladies, held in bondage, in your own churches probably relish the idea of speaking your mind freely among the saints. If not then why do you speak on here at all. You are violating scripture. You are teaching/discussing/refuting scripture with men. I am one of them. How about if I tell you to be silent in this gathering

If your doctrine is correct, then you cannot teach me anything. I have no responsibility to listen to you, if you are female.

Perhaps you should consider that God might think of this forum as a gathering of the saints constitutes a church.

 

I could easily refute your points, but I do not want to lead you into sin by requesting that you communicate anything to me concerning the scriptures. I do not want you to sin in this gathering of the saints. I will only quote the scriptures and say - women be silent in this church.

 

Huh? If you can refute, do so. This is a debate forum not a church. Eh,....... what's the point. You just seem bent on "saving" all of us women in "bondage".

Sopranette

 

I can see we are at an impass. We can not agree on the proper way to interpret the scripturs in question. You do not see the importance in understanding the historical reference to which Paul was addressing Timothy. The reasons why he said those things.

Thanks for your idea about finding a church, but I live well out in the country. The largest church of that type you mention would be 40 miles away. Plus I am also somewhat housebound.

 

First, study out the role of the pastor, i.e. elder, i.e. bishop. Then the evidence will be quite clear.

Or...maybe I should say it should be quite clear. It doesn't appear from your other posts that you are seeing the Scriptures very clearly anyway.

Your supposed historical contexts of the passages concerning the role of women in the church are without merit, and contradict the very passages themselves. Why should women keep silence in the church? Because of the Scriptures, i.e. the law. (1 Cor. 14:34)

And why is it that women do not have authority over men? Because of Creation. Adam was first formed, then Eve. (1 Tim. 2:13)

Paul explicitly told us the reason why he said these things. How is it that you get to make up new ones?

 

The problem here isn't that the organist had no skill, the problem was in thinking the organ had to be used in the first place. Organs were brought into Christian worship by men, not God.

 

Exactly. There just seems no getting through to him, using scripture!

love,

Sopranette