Possible Ten Nation Kingdoms

[thomas15]

Icon, I agree with DHK, anyone myself included can string together Bible verses in an attempt to answer a problem. Let me repeat, you simply do not answer the questions in a satisfactory way and from a Biblical viewpoint. Do you not know that I can string together numerous Bible verses and include internet links en mass to counter you posts? If I did would you find it a satisfactory response to your questions?

The answer is of course no and that is why me and other do not do business that way, your way. Until you start answering the questions using sound Biblical interpretative methods we can be certain that you don't have real answers to the actual questions brought up here. Not that I must win the this battle, my goal is to rightly handle the Scriptures and leave the rest up to the Lord.

The very fact that myself and others have made this claim to you before and you still continue to do it tells me that you really don't listen to what we say. What you are doing Icon is not debate, it is not a sharing of ideas.

 

[Iconoclast]

thomas15

Icon, I agree with DHK, anyone myself included can string together Bible verses in an attempt to answer a problem. Let me repeat, you simply do not answer the questions in a satisfactory way and from a Biblical viewpoint. Do you not know that I can string together numerous Bible verses and include internet links en mass to counter you posts? If I did would you find it a satisfactory response to your questions?

Thomas- I think you cannot respond because you are clinging tightly to your view.My explanation is clear enough for any who want to do a bit of study and look at it. I will not spoon feed you.The truth is found in the verses.
I am not the final word on these things.I just offer what i have found.
If you cannot answer someone ...like a Ken Gentry... I believe that should cause you to be a bit slower on your critic.
DHK also has no answer ...so he ignores the post saying it is allegory or whatever. Truth be told neither of you can account for the apostolic interpretations offered. When I got to that place...I had to put down Dwight Pentecosts things to come, and take a fresh look at the verses.

That is not easy to do because you have been told that this view alone is the truth.Most hold on to it...until they see that they cannot.

The answer is of course no and that is why me and other do not do business that way, your way. Until you start answering the questions using sound Biblical interpretative methods we can be certain that you don't have real answers to the actual questions brought up here. Not that I must win the this battle, my goal is to rightly handle the Scriptures and leave the rest up to the Lord.

Because you fail to see what I and others see does not translate to unsound
hermeneutics .

The very fact that myself and others have made this claim to you before and you still continue to do it tells me that you really don't listen to what we say. What you are doing Icon is not debate, it is not a sharing of ideas.

Others who can see what I offer disagree with you Thomas...I do not mean to startle you with this news flash.When I post something you do not understand or cannot respond to without being shown in error, you claim I am not following your rules.

 

[thomas15]

....Others who can see what I offer disagree with you Thomas...I do not mean to startle you with this news flash.When I post something you do not understand or cannot respond to without being shown in error, you claim I am not following your rules.

Serious?

Is this allegory or are you trying out some new material for open mic night?

 

[DHK]

I think you cannot respond because you are clinging tightly to your view.My explanation is clear enough for any who want to do a bit of study and look at it. I will not spoon feed you.The truth is found in the verses.

You don't respond because you can't. Twice I gave details like this post:

When one has to allegorize most of Scripture to come to the conclusions you do, he is in sad shape. When you consider much of Christianity (as I described in a previous post), living in poverty, illiteracy, persecution, and even tortured for their faith, and then you tell me that they are reigning right now, something is wrong with your theology.

To you this is reigning with Christ?
There are Christians all over this world, not just in your corner of the world.
Clearly you have never given thought to that, nor the amount of persecution that goes on. There were more Christians persecuted in the 20th century then in any other century, and the intensity of that persecution has increased in this century. And yet you cling to this silly idea that we are reigning with Christ.

 

[percho]

Iconoclast

First let me say I do not think Hebrews 12:22-24 says, "Jesus rules and reigns from the heavenly Mt Zion and Jerusalem."

Please permit me to ask.

Acts 2:33-35 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Jesus of Nazareth born/made of woman, born/made under the law died. This same Jesus was resurrected from the dead and his body did not see corruption and he also is to never more to return to a corruptible state. Acts 2:21 & Acts 13:34

Statement: I do not know what was in heaven prior to the resurrection and ascension of Jesus But I believe currently you have there God the Father a Spirit being and Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God, in a body which did not see corruption also a quickening Spirit being.

Again based upon that, right or wrong, you may correct, permit me to ask.

Who is from verse 34 Acts 2?
A. the LORD
B. my Lord
C. thou
D. my

From verse 35
E. I
F. thy
G. thy (again)
H. until, What does it apply to and how long is until?

Does these verses seem to imply that one is ruling and the other is awaiting to rule and is in another capacity? Like maybe as High Priest just what can be gathered from other scripture.

Compare that to Luke 19 Where the disciples thought the kingdom of God should immediately appear. Therefore Jesus told them about going into a far country to be receive a kingdom and return. He gives them something, like maybe shedding on them the Holy Spirit.

Has the man received the kingdom, returned, and called those he had given the Spirit and asked for an accounting of what they did with it or is he still giving out the Spirit?

 

[Jerome]

Note what early Baptist Benjamin Keach was teaching that led to him being persecuted:

The Metropolitan Tabernacle: Its History and Work

"Mr. Keach being brought to the bar, the clerk said, Benjamin Keach, hear your charge. Thou art here indicted by the name of Benjamin Keach, of Winslow, in the county of Bucks, for that thou being a seditious, schismatic person, evilly and maliciously disposed and disaffected to his Majesty's government, and the government of the Church of England, didst maliciously and wickedly on the fifth of May, in the sixteenth year of the reign of our sovereign lord the King, write, print, and publish, or cause to be written, printed, and published, one seditious and venomous book entitled, ' The Child's Instructor; or, a New and Easy Primmer;' wherein are contained, by way of question and answer, these damnable positions, contrary to the Book of Common Prayer and the liturgy of the Church of England; that is to say, in one place you have thus written :—

Q. Who are the right subjects for baptism?
A. Believers, or godly men and women, who make profession of their faith and repentance.

"In another place you have maliciously and wickedly written these words :—

Q. How shall it go with the saints when Christ cometh?
A. Very well; it is the day they have longed for. Then shall they hear the sentence, "Come ye blessed of my leather, inherit the kingdom prepared for you ;" and so shall they reign with Christ on the earth a thousand years, even on Mount Sion in the New Jerusalem.'

"In another place you have wickedly and maliciously written these plain English words :—' Q. Why may not infants be received into the Church now as they were under the law?. . .

. . . . .

Judge. "Benjamin Keach, you are here convicted for writing, printing, and publishing a seditious and schismatical book, for which the court's judgment is this, and the court doth award: That you shall go to gaol for a fortnight without bail or mainprize; and the next Saturday to stand upon the pillory at Aylesbury in the open market, from eleven o'clock till one, with a paper upon your head with this inscription: For writing, printing, and publishing a schismatical book, entitled, The Child's Instructor; or, a New and Easy Primmer. And the next Thursday to stand, in the same manner and for the same time, in the market at Winslow; and then your book shall be openly burnt before your face by the common hangman, in disgrace of you and your doctrine. And you shall forfeit to the King's majesty the sum of twenty pounds, and shall remain in gaol until you find sureties for your good behaviour, and for your appearance at the next assizes ; then to renounce your doctrines, and make such public submission as shall be enjoined you. Take him away, keeper!"

Keach simply replied, "I hope I shall never renounce the truths which I have written in that book."

When he was brought to the pillory at Aylesbury, several of his religious friends and acquaintances accompanied him: and when they bemoaned his hard case and the injustice of his sufferings, he said with a cheerful countenance, "The cross is the way to the crown." His head and hands were no sooner placed in the pillory, but he began to address himself to the spectators, to this effect:—' Good people, I am not ashamed to stand here this day, with this paper on my head! my Lord Jesus was not ashamed to suffer on the cross for me; and it is for his cause that I am made a gazing-stock. Take notice, it is not for any wickedness that I stand here; but for writing and publishing those truths which the Spirit of the Lord hath revealed in the Holy Scriptures."

 

[Iconoclast]

Percho,

First let me say I do not think Hebrews 12:22-24 says, "Jesus rules and reigns from the heavenly Mt Zion and Jerusalem."

Before I offer a response could you clarify for me what you mean by this?
What do you believe those verses are speaking about?
Have you studied about Mt Zion in scripture?

These are not trick questions,I am just trying to understand what you believe here before i offer a response that could be helpful.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jerome

Note what early Baptist Benjamin Keach was teaching that led to him being persecuted:

Somehow I knew you would love Benjamin Keach Jerome,
seeing as you do here is more about him-

The confessions of faith that Keach embraced also taught the doctrine of biblical authority and divine origin. Keach held to the Second London Baptist Confession, which has a clear statement on the authority of Scripture: "The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience" (2LBCF 1:1). It also says that Scripture "is to be received because it is the Word of God" (2LBCF 1:4), and that it is "infallible truth and divine authority" (2LBCF 1:5). The Baptist Catechism, which bears Keach's own name, asks, "What is the Word of God?" It answers, "The Scriptures of the Old and New Testament, being given by divine inspiration, are the Word of God, the only infallible rule of faith and practice."

Like other evangelicals, Keach embraced covenant theology, which he believed was the Bible's own hermeneutical grid and therefore the lens through which Scripture should be read. For Keach, covenant theology was the framework of the gospel itself. According to Austin Walker, "The covenant of grace assumed a central place in Keach's thinking, so much so that it is not possible to appreciate either Keach's Calvinism or the man himself without a right appreciation of his understanding of it."[8] In 1693, Keach preached two sermons that were later edited and printed in a forty-four page booklet entitled The Everlasting Covenant. These two sermons outline Keach's covenant theology.

he Abrahamic promise does the same when God declares to Abraham in Genesis 12:3 and 22:18, "In your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed." According to the New Testament, Christ himself is the promised offspring (Galatians 3:16), and this promise guarantees blessings for men from every nation who are in Him (Galatains 3:28-29). Similarly, Keach argued, the Davidic covenant "runs to Christ, and also in him to us" (Psalm 89:20, 28, 29). The covenant with David and his offspring pointed to Christ and was a type of the covenant with Christ and those in Him. So, all of the Old Testament covenants are promises flowing from a single covenant of grace with Christ and those in Him.[11]

Keach argued that the covenant of grace is a covenant of grace to the elect, but to Christ, it is a covenant of works and merit. Christ had to keep God's law in order to merit the blessing Adam forfeited. The elect benefit from the merits of Christ in the covenant of grace when the Spirit applies Christ's work to them.

He then discussed various ways in which the eternal covenant of grace is a well-ordered covenant (2 Samuel 22:5).[12] It is well-ordered with respect to God's attributes. It puts many of God's attributes on display, including God's sovereignty, showing that God has the right to choose those upon whom He would bestow His saving benefits. The covenant also displays God's infinite wisdom in designing such a covenant, His love for His people, His justice in upholding His holy law, His power in effectually calling the elect, and His faithfulness in keeping them to the end.[13]

:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Serious?

Is this allegory or are you trying out some new material for open mic night?

Your lack of response confirms my previous post.If I wanted material for open mike night i would have recorded the two dispys from the Sw bible church in OKLA. i heard on the radio today.They were speaking about how
Obamacare is going to be the tool for the implanting of the microchips,and the new pope ...perhaps ....will be the false prophet for the soon coming anti-christ..

I was thinking of you and this post as i laughed going down the road.they spent the whole program on these endless speculations....

i will stay with those who find the answers in the bible rather than tomorrows newspaper:wavey:

here it is Thomas....get the fresh scoop;

http://www.swrc.com/

agents of change:thumbsupn realplayer:laugh:for you my friend-enjoy

 

[Iconoclast]

That would be a second second coming. First second coming in AD70, the second some other time. Which is the one that no one knows the time or date? Since the first second coming happened in AD70, what day and month was it?

With all the books you claim you have on end times...maybe you should crack open one or two of them , if you cannot distinguish between a full preterist and a partial preterist.
The second coming is the last day.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

You don't respond because you can't.

I do respond but you do not seem to like my responses DHK.

Twice I gave details like this post:
When one has to allegorize most of Scripture to come to the conclusions you do, he is in sad shape. When you consider much of Christianity (as I described in a previous post), living in poverty, illiteracy, persecution, and even tortured for their faith, and then you tell me that they are reigning right now, something is wrong with your theology.

I have responded to this and you do not accept it.Jesus and the Apostles spoke often of believers who are put to death for the faith, who endure hardships.....yes they also reign with Christ DHK....

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


I could offer dozens of scriptures ,but you are usually to busy according to your posts to be bothered to read them.....or they are allegorical to you....

22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

To you this is reigning with Christ?

Here is the heavenly view of the acension DHK given in dan 7
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Sorry to trouble you with scripture DHK that speak of the ongoing ,yet not complete Kingdom...Jesus reigns now and believers in Him.

There are Christians all over this world, not just in your corner of the world.
Clearly you have never given thought to that,

You seem to feel the need to take this kind of cheap shot when you post as if it makes what you post be more credible?
Who are you to speculate that I do not know what is going on worldwide, or that I have never given any thought to it

nor the amount of persecution that goes on. There were more Christians persecuted in the 20th century then in any other century, and the intensity of that persecution has increased in this century. And yet you cling to this silly idea that we are reigning with Christ.

The bible declares it so I believe it.It is not silly but biblical....

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Is this John ..."allegorizing" DHK....or does he mean what he says?

6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.

 

[thomas15]

.....I was thinking of you and this post as i laughed going down the road.they spent the whole program on these endless speculations....

i will stay with those who find the answers in the bible rather than tomorrows newspaper:wavey:

We have come to the part of this thread where Icon will provide quotes from Thomas15 where he states that current events are absolute proof that we are currently living in the period just before the rapture and that the tribulation is almost here.

Answer goes here:_____. Notice that there isn't enough room for a quote because there are none. But it would be interesting to know just exacly what Icon's purpose making the current events/newspaper claim that we hear all the time in the context of this discussion.

In addition to providing that information, Icon will also include the often requested but never provided historical information confirming that the judgements (that preterist claim already happened) of Revelation (cross referenced in Matthew 24-25, Exodus ch 7-- ch 12) were fufilled in AD 70. Of particular interest will be the historical account of:

1/4 of the earth judged by Jehovah Rev 6:8 when did this happen?

1/3 of the earth judged Rev 9:15 when did this happend? Also a historical account of the 200 million many invasion force.

1/3 of the sea going ships destroyed Rev 3:9 when did this happen?

1/3 of marine life destroyed Rev 8:9 when did this happen?

The name of the man of sin

The name of just one of the 144,000 sealed in Rev 7:4-8. The name of the false prophet or the two witnesses

 

[DHK]

The bible declares it so I believe it.It is not silly but biblical....

I think Luke addressed those who post such statements like these in a thread about ignorance. When you don't know the meaning of a passage you simply declare: "The Bible says it so I believe it."
That is not good enough Icon.
The devils believe and tremble. What does the passage say, and what does it mean. Our priesthood is definitely a spiritual priesthood, as we can go before the throne of God at any time, unlike the OT priesthood. Only the high priest could enter into the holy of holies, and that only one time a year. We can enter in at any time, any place, without hindrance.
We are kings--royalty. It speaks of being heirs of God and joint heirs of Jesus Christ. It does not mean that we are reigning right now. This world is in control of the prince of the power of the air. If you believe the Bible then you will believe that.

Christ is not presently ruling this world. Satan is. The Bible declares that in many places. Eph.2:2 is a good place to begin. This world does not match up to Isaiah chapter 11, and other such descriptions. There is no reign of Christ. Those persecuted Christians can in no way said to be reigning. Any person who says that is deceiving themselves and lying to themselves.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Is this John ..."allegorizing" DHK....or does he mean what he says?

It is positional, not practical. Some day it will be in practice, but right now it is positional.

6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.

You are deluded, and will remain in a fairy-land imaginary Peter-pan land until you seriously find out the meaning of these texts.
Yes, he has made us kings and priests. That doesn't mean that we are actually reigning over this earth as such right now. Dream on.

 

[percho]

Percho,



Before I offer a response could you clarify for me what you mean by this?
What do you believe those verses are speaking about?
Have you studied about Mt Zion in scripture?

These are not trick questions,I am just trying to understand what you believe here before i offer a response that could be helpful.

I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit brings us to, that is puts us in Mt Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, which is, Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

I believe Mt Zion began with the resurrected Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ the Son of the Living God who said he would build his church.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18

Jesus born of Mary in this wise; And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: Rev 12:2,1st part of 5

This Child grew into a Man and died for our sins.

He is the firstborn from the dead. How was this birth different from the other?

Acts 2:24 Whom God (the Father) hath raised up, having loosed the (birth) pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

The birth pains of death having been taken from Psalms 116:3 where death there is Sheol (Greek Hades) translated in the Spetuagint death. Death is the gates of Hades.

God the Father in raising up Jesus from the dead loosed the childbirth pains of Hades. Therefore: Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. The same Child who had been born in pain and travail, part of the curse, to Mary conceived of the Spirit God. Rev 12:5 last part, and her child was caught up unto God, (his Father) and [to] his (the Father's) throne.

Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. From Acts 2:34,35

Now we by the gift of the Holy Spirit come to Mt Zion, the mother of us all,
church of the firstborn (from the dead). Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I will build my church (called out of the nations of this world) and the gates (death) of Hades shall not prevail against it (should be her).

What are they born from Mt Zion into????

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

She shall travail bringing forth us by birth, into the kingdom of God.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit brings us to, that is puts us in Mt Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, which is, Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

I believe Mt Zion began with the resurrected Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ the Son of the Living God who said he would build his church.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18

Jesus born of Mary in this wise; And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: Rev 12:2,1st part of 5

This Child grew into a Man and died for our sins.

He is the firstborn from the dead. How was this birth different from the other?

Acts 2:24 Whom God (the Father) hath raised up, having loosed the (birth) pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

The birth pains of death having been taken from Psalms 116:3 where death there is Sheol (Greek Hades) translated in the Spetuagint death. Death is the gates of Hades.

God the Father in raising up Jesus from the dead loosed the childbirth pains of Hades. Therefore: Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. The same Child who had been born in pain and travail, part of the curse, to Mary conceived of the Spirit God. Rev 12:5 last part, and her child was caught up unto God, (his Father) and [to] his (the Father's) throne.

Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. From Acts 2:34,35

Now we by the gift of the Holy Spirit come to Mt Zion, the mother of us all,
church of the firstborn (from the dead). Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I will build my church (called out of the nations of this world) and the gates (death) of Hades shall not prevail against it (should be her).

What are they born from Mt Zion into????

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

She shall travail bringing forth us by birth, into the kingdom of God.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

Excellent post.....I will go over it in detail in a few hours, must go back to work soon.
7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I think Luke addressed those who post such statements like these in a thread about ignorance. When you don't know the meaning of a passage you simply declare: "The Bible says it so I believe it."
That is not good enough Icon

.

I see DHK....someone is posting in ignorance now
Lets see if we can find out the culprit!


I am thankful for your post here DHK as it shows the problem:thumbsup:

We are kings--royalty. It speaks of being heirs of God and joint heirs of Jesus Christ. It does not mean that we are reigning right now

.

Nice try at twisting this DHK....joint heirs would speak of our adoption as Sons....like here;
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I see no mention of royalty here...it speaks of children and sons....

Royalty speaks of a KING....What does a KING do DHK?
yes that is correct- he reigns over a KINGDOM.....now we are getting somewhere.
If someone was in ignorance about what a King does he might not know this.If someone knows this and avoids it by speaking of sonship rather than Kingship that would seem to be on purpose.

I am not a dentist but feel like i must be pulling teeth here.

This world is in control of the prince of the power of the air. If you believe the Bible then you will believe that.

Christ is not presently ruling this world. Satan is

.

Not in my Fathers world DHK. This indeed is the root of the problem.

The Bible declares that in many places. Eph.2:2 is a good place to begin

.

well....Eph 2:2 is a fine verse and if you notice it follows EPH 2:1

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

By now everyone but you see's the root problem....

Paul is contrasting Those who are quickened out of the KINGDOM of darkness,into the KINGDOM of LIGHT....

notice DHK.....who were dead/ in time PAST/ the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience......

SATAN does not rule the kingdom of light DHK....The kingdom has a KING.

maybe you did not get the memo DHK...because you were too busy trying to think of a way to disparage me.
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


This has happened and we are free to serve God and not at all under Satans control.
Then you go here-

Christ is not presently ruling this world. Satan is.
This world does not match up to Isaiah chapter 11, and other such descriptions. There is no reign of Christ.

Well being as Paul quotes from Isa 11 in Romans ...your case fails.

Those persecuted Christians can in no way said to be reigning. Any person who says that is deceiving themselves and lying to themselves.

It is positional, not practical. Some day it will be in practice, but right now it is positional.

The perfection of it is future, but the reality of it is now.You can make fun ,call it a dream or whatever you do here;

You are deluded, and will remain in a fairy-land imaginary Peter-pan land until you seriously find out the meaning of these texts.
Yes, he has made us kings and priests. That doesn't mean that we are actually reigning over this earth as such right now. Dream on/QUOTE]

I will live the reality of what was found in type and has now come to pass.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Your ignoring of the Daniel 7 coronation of the KING is understandable as you cling onto your false notions,and seek to hold on until the rapture, looking for beasts and microchips, and a ten nation vehicle for the antichrist.....I will continue to worship the King that they sing about in the hymns.....OUR GOD REIGNS......It is My Fathers world.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[DHK]

DHK
I see DHK....someone is posting in ignorance now
Lets see if we can find out the culprit!
I am thankful for your post here DHK as it shows the problem:thumbsup:

Nice try at twisting this DHK....joint heirs would speak of our adoption as Sons....like here;
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I see no mention of royalty here...it speaks of children and sons....

Royalty speaks of a KING....What does a KING do DHK?
yes that is correct- he reigns over a KINGDOM.....now we are getting somewhere.

It doesn't say you are reigning ICON, in fact it says you are a child. And by the way you are posting you are still acting like one!

If someone was in ignorance about what a King does he might not know this.If someone knows this and avoids it by speaking of sonship rather than Kingship that would seem to be on purpose.

Children have knowledge of kings. That doesn't mean that they rule and reign. I am a child of the king, aren't you?

Not in my Fathers world DHK. This indeed is the root of the problem.

It is the root of your problem. Christ sits on the right hand of the throne of God. You sit on your rocking chair. :smilewinkgrin:
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Like it or not you have not passed on to glory; you do not sit in the presence of Jesus, and most of all, Christ hasn't returned to this earth to set up his kingdom. You are not ruling at all. You are in the dominion of Satan's kingdom.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
--If we were in the kingdom, we would not have this command to wrestle against Satan's kingdom--principalities, powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places.
How dare you call this the kingdom of God or of Christ. It is not! It is the kingdom of Satan, Satan' dominion that we are living in. The whole world is under his influence, his domination.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--Who is the "god of this world"?

well....Eph 2:2 is a fine verse and if you notice it follows EPH 2:1

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

By now everyone but you see's the root problem....

Paul is contrasting Those who are quickened out of the KINGDOM of darkness,into the KINGDOM of LIGHT....

notice DHK.....who were dead/ in time PAST/ the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience......

We are still in this world!
We have not been translated into another kingdom, another world. We live in Satan's dominion and must do battle with him every day.

SATAN does not rule the kingdom of light DHK....The kingdom has a KING.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--We live in this world. Satan is the god of this world. '
We do not live in a fictitious world. You don't seem to be able to reconcile Scripture. You want to live in a fantasy world. The Millennial Kingdom is still future.

maybe you did not get the memo DHK...because you were too busy trying to think of a way to disparage me.
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


This has happened and we are free to serve God and not at all under Satans control.

That simply means that we have salvation. Why are you trying to read something into it that it doesn't mean? We have deliverance. Yes! From sin, Satan's hold of us, Satan's power over us, etc. Why? Because the Holy Spirit lives in us, and has ever since we were born again. That has nothing to do with the coming of Christ nor with his kingdom; the Millennial Kingdom.

Well being as Paul quotes from Isa 11 in Romans ...your case fails.

Chapter 11 of Isaiah is a very long chapter and Paul doesn't quote from the passage that I have referred to you in the past. There were no chapter divisions in the originals either.

The perfection of it is future, but the reality of it is now.You can make fun ,call it a dream or whatever you do here;

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--We live in the world controlled by Satan. That is why you cannot properly answer my questions. These verses don't even make sense to you.

You are deluded, and will remain in a fairy-land imaginary Peter-pan land until you seriously find out the meaning of these texts.
Yes, he has made us kings and priests. That doesn't mean that we are actually reigning over this earth as such right now. Dream on/QUOTE]

I will live the reality of what was found in type and has now come to pass.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

That all refers to our position in Christ. It does not refer to the coming Kingdom.

Your ignoring of the Daniel 7 coronation of the KING is understandable as you cling onto your false notions,and seek to hold on until the rapture, looking for beasts and microchips, and a ten nation vehicle for the antichrist.....I will continue to worship the King that they sing about in the hymns.....OUR GOD REIGNS......It is My Fathers world.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

And yet right before your very eyes, kingdom after kingdom is being destroyed on this earth, and that makes no sense to you? What is happening in Syria, Israel, North Korea, Iran, Egypt, etc. Does Christ presently have dominion and glory over all these people and nations? Do they serve him now? Is it an everlasting dominion.
NO! It is Satan's world and he works vehemently against God, for he knows he has but a short time left.

 

[Iconoclast]

percho

I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit brings us to, that is puts us in Mt Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, which is, Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Yes,The Holy Spirit places us In Christ.He has ascended to Heaven to rule by His word going forth from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.

Zion and Jerusalem are listed 153 times together.Many deal with the earthly Jerusalem and Zion when they were considered the Holy place.Most all of the prophetical passages speak of the heavenly.

ColI believe Mt Zion began with the resurrected Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ the Son of the Living God who said he would build his church.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. 1:18

Before I posted to you about How King David took the stronghold of Zion.That happened in History and at the same time was a type.
King Jesus riding into Jerusalem to accomplish redemption is the reality,in that as He goes to the cross,the grave and rises victorious...ascending as the Triumphal King who now reigns from heaven in the midst of his enemies



110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

you had said:You did not see how Heb12:22-24 speaks of Jesus being King...

these verses speak of us being placed into Jesus Kingdom,and then as we read further you see the King speaking and speaking of us receiving this eternal Kingdom.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.


Jesus speaks from heaven to us in His word.In verse 28 it speaks clearly of us RECEIVING a KINGDOM....It is here now....eventually it all comes down to the renewed earth

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

See the Covenant language used:thumbs:

Jesus born of Mary in this wise; And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: Rev 12:2,1st part of 5

This Child grew into a Man and died for our sins.

Yes in Rev 12 there is an overview of redemptive history:
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Jesus defeats Satan and binds him.As the gospel goes forth :

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

He is the firstborn from the dead. How was this birth different from the other?

He raises up as our Eternal High Priest and led captivity captive
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

from psa68
17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death.

Acts 2:24 Whom God (the Father) hath raised up, having loosed the (birth) pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

The birth pains of death having been taken from Psalms 116:3 where death there is Sheol (Greek Hades) translated in the Spetuagint death. Death is the gates of Hades.

God the Father in raising up Jesus from the dead loosed the childbirth pains of Hades. Therefore: Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. The same Child who had been born in pain and travail, part of the curse, to Mary conceived of the Spirit God. Rev 12:5 last part, and her child was caught up unto God, (his Father) and [to] his (the Father's) throne.

Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. From Acts 2:34,35

Now we by the gift of the Holy Spirit come to Mt Zion, the mother of us all,
church of the firstborn (from the dead). Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I will build my church (called out of the nations of this world) and the gates (death) of Hades shall not prevail against it (should be her).

What are they born from Mt Zion into????

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

She shall travail bringing forth us by birth, into the kingdom of God.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

[/QUOTE]


you have it....Zion is the CHURCH......:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK;

It is the root of your problem. Christ sits on the right hand of the throne of God. You sit on your rocking chair. :smilewinkgrin:
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Like it or not you have not passed on to glory; you do not sit in the presence of Jesus, and most of all, Christ hasn't returned to this earth to set up his kingdom. You are not ruling at all. You are in the dominion of Satan's kingdom.

How dare you call this the kingdom of God or of Christ. It is not! It is the kingdom of Satan, Satan' dominion that we are living in. The whole world is under his influence, his domination.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--Who is the "god of this world"?

We are still in this world!
We have not been translated into another kingdom, another world. We live in Satan's dominion and must do battle with him every day.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--We live in this world. Satan is the god of this world. '

This is your worst post so far.....in your world,,,satan rules, but every verse speaks of

them which believe not,

This is not describing christians..christians are described as...believers

Jesus said believers are in the world ,but not of it:
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

We do not live in a fictitious world. You don't seem to be able to reconcile Scripture

.
My citizenship is in heaven PHIL3:20..it is very real and eternal

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

You want to live in a fantasy world. The Millennial Kingdom is still future.

we have been translated into The Kingdom, it means exactly what it says.

That simply means that we have salvation. Why are you trying to read something into it that it doesn't mean? We have deliverance. Yes! From sin, Satan's hold of us, Satan's power over us, etc. Why? Because the Holy Spirit lives in us, and has ever since we were born again.

See you even realize it, but at the end of the day your falsely dividing the word of truth leads you to this sad idea.

That has nothing to do with the coming of Christ nor with his kingdom; the Millennial Kingdom.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--We live in the world controlled by Satan. That is why you cannot properly answer my questions. These verses don't even make sense to you.

I just see clearly that it speaks about...those who believe not.

You are deluded, and will remain in a fairy-land imaginary Peter-pan land until you seriously find out the meaning of these texts.
Yes, he has made us kings and priests. That doesn't mean that we are actually reigning over this earth as such right now. Dream on/QUOTE]

You are not able to see what others see clearly.put down the late GREAT PLANET EARTH.

And yet right before your very eyes, kingdom after kingdom is being destroyed on this earth, and that makes no sense to you? What is happening in Syria, Israel, North Korea, Iran, Egypt, etc. Does Christ presently have dominion and glory over all these people and nations?

Yes,,,,Christ has complete control of the nations, it is only His longsuffering that they still exist, so the elect in those nations can come to truth.

Do they serve him now?

Not fully yet....

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Is it an everlasting dominion.

Yes...ever since dan 7:
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed

NO! It is Satan's world and he works vehemently against God, for he knows he has but a short time left.

Only the unsaved are subject to satan....

 

[percho]

Iconoclast


I just want to comment on one a point we agreed on.

"you have it....Zion is the CHURCH......"

If we agree on that would not? "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66:8," that one day be this day? In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:16,17

On that day would not those alive flesh and blood, in Christ and those who had died flesh and blood, in Christ, that is the church which Christ built not inherit the kingdom of God?

Why would the church be inheriting the kingdom on that day if they had been in and ruling in the kingdom for all these years?