Post-trib, Pre-mill Rapture = 2nd coming and saints taken to heaven

[Darrell C]

Again, Messiah is cut off at the end of the 69 Weeks, that is just the case. He is not cut off in the middle of the seventieth week, but before the seventieth week even begins.

No there are 483 years 'until Messiah the prince" -- the 'annointed one' -- annointed by the Holy Spirit at the start of his ministry. Thus in Mark 1 both John and Christ proclaim "the time is fulfilled" they were at the end of the 69th week and the start of the 70th.

Read it again:


Daniel 9:26-27

King James Version (KJV)


26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The 69 Weeks coincide with the end of the 69 weeks. It is not within the Seventieth Week.

Some have placed that timeline to the day with Christ's Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem.

The Seventieth Week has "he" confirming a Covenant...and then in the middle of the week breaking it.

What that means, Bob, is that if you make the "he" Christ...then you have Christ confirming the New Covenant in the middle of the week...not at the beginning.

If you make Christ confirming the Covenant of Law with the beginning of His earthly Ministry...then you have skipped past Messiah being cut off.

Understand the problem there?

The only timeline that works is Messiah is cut off, and the "he" is the Antichrist all prophecy speaks of...not Christ.


Continued.

 

[Darrell C]

Christ confirms the covenant - and says "THIS cut is the new COVENANT in My blood" -

How did Christ confirm the Covenant?

You are speaking about the New Covenant specifically, but, the fact is that Christ establishing the New Covenant with His Blood did take place at the beginning of His earthly Ministry, it began...

...at the end of it.

The Covenant in view (which can only be the Covenant of Law) is confirmed at the beginning of the Seventieth Week...

...not in the middle of it:


Daniel 9:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Christ did not confirm the New Covenant in His earthly Ministry...He confirmed the validity of the Covenant of Law. And He did this throughout His Ministry.

The confirmation in His establishing Communion takes place at the end, which would be, if we try to make Christ's Ministry as the start of the Seventieth Week...right in the middle of the Week.

And that violates the Prophecy of Daniel. The Covenant that is confirmed is confirmed at the beginning of the Week, so if we make Christ the "he" then we are forced to make the confirmation of the Covenant at the time of His death, and we will have to have that last seven years following.

And that is not what happened.

There is no contiguity.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

In each case the NT does not fail to show the fulfillment of each part of the prophecy.

I agree, but we have to go to 2 Thessalonians and Revelation in order to see how it is fulfilled.

And when we do, we see a perfect seven year period that has, in the first half, Temple Service under the forty two month ministry of the Two Witnesses, and then, when they are killed and raptured, the forty two month period given the Antichrist.

It is at that time he destroys the city and sanctuary and makes sacrifice and oblation desolate because he stands in the Temple declaring himself to be God.

The consistency of Prophecy is amazing.

Nothing in Daniel 9 say the Messiah is cut off before the Seventieth Week begins.

It does, because He is cut off before the Seventieth Week begins. The Seventieth Week begins when the Covenant is confirmed, and at this point Messiah is already cut off. Because you make the "he" to be Christ instead of the one whose people destroy the city and sanctuary...


Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Again, Bob...Christians did not destroy the City and the Sanctuary. And it is not until roughly 35 years pass that sacrifice and oblation cease when the Temple is destroyed. There is no consistency in the timeline you present.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

That means 69 weeks. .. 483 years from 457 B.C. - is 27 A.D. when Christ was baptized -- the start of his ministry - and so both John and Christ in Mark 1 preach "the time is fulfilled".

You still place Christ's baptism at the end of the 69 weeks, Bob, because you are trying to make His Baptism the beginning of the Seventieth Week.

You're saying the same thing I am, except I see the 69 Weeks ending with His being cut off.

The Covenant is confirmed within the Seventieth Week, you cannot change that simple truth.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

(7 weeks, 62 weeks, 1 week)

At the end of that 62 weeks - we have the full 69 weeks. And only AFTER that is the Messiah cut off.

I agree:


Daniel 9:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


In view is Messiah being cut off and with this the 69 Weeks come to a close, which leaves the Seventieth Week.

It does not say He is cut off within the 70th Week.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

And this is without question a reference to His Sacrifice of Himself.

Bob...that is when we start the Seventieth Week.

He is not cut off in the 70th Week.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Many view this as Christ because of the reference to the cessation of sacrifice and offering.

That didn't happen when Christ was crucified.

And again, if you try to make the covenant in view that is confirmed to be the New Covenant, again, your timeline is thrown into disarray because we still have to begin the 70th Week...at that time.

Nothing fits, Bob.

The best you can do in trying to make the "he" Christ is to say He confirmed the Covenant of Law at the beginning of His Ministry, then made the Covenant obsolete by His death.

Where is the other 3 1/2 years, Bob.

There is no contiguous fulfillment, because Christ did not bring the Seventieth Week to a close 3 1/2 years later, after His death.

The Tribulation ends with Christ's Return, and the establishment of the Kingdom.

Heb 10
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And Christ established the New Covenant with His death. This is when Christ is cut off, and it has to be between the 69 Weeks and the 70th Week, it does not happen in the Middle.

So you need to reconcile Messiah being cut off and your timeline of events in regards to the prophecy of Daniel.

Daniel makes it clear that there is a 3 1/2 year period from the time the Abomination of Desolation takes place, as does Christ in Matthew 24.

You have that coinciding with Christ's death and it will never work.

Okay, thanks for the response, that is all the time I have, and have not decided if I will return after I get back from vacation. Have a lot of other projects to tend too and this is the busy season for me with work.

So until next we meet...


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

70 weeks - includes the 69th and 70th week.All contiguous.

70 weeks = 490 apocalyptic days - == 490 literal years.
457 B.C to 34 A.D. -- one contiguous timeline.

One 490 year prophecy -- >> the 70 week prophecy.

So also the 70 years of Jeremiah that Daniel reference in that SAME chapter.

70 years contiguous timeline.
70 weeks - --> 490 years contiguous timeline.



It would have been had there been such a timeline prophecy. But there is not.



There are events that happen after the 490 years complete - but they are not part of that 490 year timeline. The messiah is cut off (killed) in the midst of the that last week. And he also causes sacrifices and offerings to cease Hebrews 10:4-12 in the midst of that week. "He takes away the first to establish the second" -- Hebrews 10.



No there are 483 years 'until Messiah the prince" -- the 'annointed one' -- annointed by the Holy Spirit at the start of his ministry. Thus in Mark 1 both John and Christ proclaim "the time is fulfilled" they were at the end of the 69th week and the start of the 70th.

Christ confirms the covenant - and says "THIS cut is the new COVENANT in My blood" -

In each case the NT does not fail to show the fulfillment of each part of the prophecy.

Nothing in Daniel 9 say the Messiah is cut off before the Seventieth Week begins.



25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

That means 69 weeks. .. 483 years from 457 B.C. - is 27 A.D. when Christ was baptized -- the start of his ministry - and so both John and Christ in Mark 1 preach "the time is fulfilled".

(7 weeks, 62 weeks, 1 week)

At the end of that 62 weeks - we have the full 69 weeks. And only AFTER that is the Messiah cut off.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

​

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Heb 10
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

That's the point...the timeline stops between the 69th and 70th Week.

The 70 week - 490 year contiguous timeline beginning in 457 stops long before the 2nd coming but there is not even one 490 year timeline or 70 year timeline or 3 day timeline or 2300 year timeline that has gaps of vast unknown time inserted into the middle of it... not even one.

Instead of showing that the Bible ever does such a thing you are simply assuming you can insert gaps as per preference.

The Prophecy was not fulfilled when Christ was cut off. We did not see Messiah cut off then a Covenant confirmed,

As I have just showed - we do see the Messiah cut off in the midst of that 7 year period following the 69 weeks - that points to his Baptism.

And the text does not say he confirms the covenant after he is cut off.


But the City and Sanctuary are indeed destroyed after the Messiah is cut off -

Hebrews 10 tells us that the sacrifice and offering were caused to cease being valid - at the cross.

.