post-trib, pre-wrath rapture

Annsni,

No one seems to address the real question in the relatively "new" Pre-Wrath Rapture View, i.e., that it continues the Pre-Trib teaching of
two separate stages to the Second Coming!

You write:
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There's nothing that I can say to make it pre or post trib.
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What can anyone say that makes the Rapture Pre-Trib and at the same
time acknowledges Jesus will "raise up every believer on the Last Day"?

This "new" view claims the Rapture is Pre-Wrath because the Plagues
contain God's wrath and, if so, requires a Pre-Plague Rapture!

The Plagues cannot contain or complete God's wrath because they must
"exhaust God's anger" first! Rev.15:1...New Jerusalem Bible. "No one can enter the Temple in heaven until the last Plague "completes His anger" and the smoke of God's power and glory clears the Temple!! Rev.15:8. God's wrath comes at the 7th Trumpet only after all the Martyrs come out of the great tribulation; out from under the Temple Altar; and after "God's Mystery was finished and Chronos-Time shall be no longer (Rev.10:6-7) in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound"!!!

Then and then only does the "appointed time" arrive for the Resurrection and Rewards to the "prophets and saints and all who fear God" and for final Retribution upon those "destroying the earth"! Rev.11:18.

Neither the Pre-Trib View nor the so-called Pre-Wrath View deals with
these scriptures...including that of John 6:38-40,44,54 and John 11:24.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Friends,

Why is it that Jesus "blesses those who watch for His coming as a thief"
when Armies of the Evil Trio are gathered to Armageddon? Rev.16:14-16.

The obvious answer is that He doesn't appear until these Armies kill a
third of mankind in the 6th Trumpet and invade Israel at the 6th Plague!

God's Day of wrath cannot occur as long as men may repent! The Beast-Worshipers refuse to repent during six Trumpet Judgments and blaspheme God instead of repenting during five of the Plagues!! They show their total rebellion against God by invading Israel during the 6th Plague!!!

Therefore, at the 7th Plague God says "It is Done"! At the 7th Trumpet
His "wrath has come and the appointed (kairos) time" to Resurrect and Reward the Saints who will be watching for His coming!! And that is when "He is coming as a thief to destroy the destroyers of earth"!!! Rev.11:18.

Only a Post-Trib Rapture recognizes the context in which Believers will "know the End has come" and be "blessed as they watch for Christ to come" at any moment! The Day of Wrath will not begin until the Armies gather to Armageddon!! In my opinion, that Day's Wrath occurs only when Christ appears!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

That 7-year tribulation is for unbelievers and not for the church, the "Bride" of Christ.

 

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Welcome, Jon-Marc, to the Forums. Since you like emails that are short and to the point, I believe you will greatly profit by getting a Strong's
Concordance that doesn't require a "magnifying glass to read".

This is based on your message: "I have a Strong's concordance that I've had for many years. It's very well known. Unfortunately, the print is so tiny that I have to use a magnifying glass to see anything in it".
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After looking up Matt.24:21,29; Mark 13:24 and John 16:33, would you explain your opening quote above in the light of what Paul taught in
Acts 14:22 and 2 Thess.1:6?

Only then, I think, would I be challenged to ask you why you think the
Martyrs who "come out of great tribulation" are NOT members of
the Church, "the Bride of Christ"!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mr Miller

I have a couple of questions for you and would appreciate just simple answers.

Are you covenant in your theology? Meaning do you see the local church as being the recipients of Israel's covenants with God?

Secondly do you hold to a dispensational view of human history and God's revelation to humanity as recorded in scripture?

thank you for your answers

thjplgvp

 

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I do not accept Covenant theology that the Church is the "New Israel"!

I believe in the Dispensational View that all Israel as a nation will be saved on the Day Christ appears and the Davidic Covenant will establish Israel at
the head of Gentile nations for 1000 years.

Mel

 

Mell thank you for your response

Based on your above response that you do not accept covenant theology why would you not understand that God does not work within two economies at the same time. If the kingdom was taken from Israel in Matthew 21:43 and given to the gentile nations when is the kingdom declaration given back to Israel? Would it not be that at the time of the rapture (pretrib) the declaration of the kingdom falls back on Israel and hence the 144,000 evangelists? How do you account for the vision given to John in which Jesus clearly differentiates between the churches (the things which are ) and Israel (the things which will be hereafter).

If the churches go through the tribulation then to what end were the stories of flood and Sodom which clearly reveal that God will remove or protect his own from his destruction.

How do you justify having the churches and the Jews both being the recipient of God's wrath on Israel during the tribulation period which is designed by God to bring the Jews back to Him?

thjplgvp

 

thjplgvp
Quote:
Based on your above response that you do not accept covenant theology why would you not understand that God does not work within two economies at the same time.
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The “new covenant” economy takes effect for Israel on one of “the days AFTER” the prophetic time of Daniel’s 70th Seven “shall no longer” be subject to countdown of 1260 days! Jesus predicted its 1290 days will be “cut short”; Rev.12:6,14 equates the Endtime with 1260 days!! This conclusion is based on Rom.11:25-27; Rev.10:6-7!!!

My friend, you should first prove that national “blindness” to Israel will be removed BEFORE the 1260 days begin rather than “AFTER those days” are no longer subject to countdown! No over-lapping of economies exists between the End of this Age and the start of the Age to Come!! This conclusion rests on the fact, as long as Trumpet and Plague Judgments allow even Beast-Worshipers to repent (Rev.9:20-21; 16:9-11), God will not execute Wrath upon the wicked and simultaneously will “keep all those in the Church who overcome to the End; the Hour of Trial”!!! Rev.2:25-26; Rev.3:10-11.
Quote:
Would it not be that at the time of the rapture (pretrib) the declaration of the kingdom falls back on Israel and hence the 144,000 evangelists?
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During the 1260-Day Endtime, the declaration of the “NOW of God’s Kingdom Power and demonstration of Christ’s Authority” (Rev.12:10; Mark 9:1) Jesus guarantees that “some will not taste death, by any means", until Christ is about to come in glory! Matt.16:27. This includes the Two Witnesses who will demonstrate God’s Kingdom Power for 1260 days…until chronos-Time is no longer subject to a countdown and the Mystery of God was finished…until no more that 3½ days remain until “God’s wrath has come”!!! Rev.11:3-18. [144,000 “Firstfruit” are kept safe in the desert].

Only at the 7th Trumpet do we find the HOUR of God’s wrath has come! With that HOUR also has come the “appointed (kairos) time to judge the dead in Christ (Resurrection); to Reward the prophets and saints and all who fear God, both small and great; and to destroy earth’s destroyers" (Retribution)!! “No one enters the Temple for this proclamation until the Last Plague empties in the air”!!! Rev.15:8.
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If the churches go through the tribulation, to what end were the stories of flood and Sodom which reveal that God will remove or protect his own from his destruction.
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Jesus reveals He will “gather the Elect from earth to heaven on the SAME Day” He destroys ALL the wicked. Mark 13:27; Luke 17:27-30. All Israel will “mourn and pray to escape all these things and prevail to stand before the Son of Man”. Luke 21:36. Paul teaches our deliverance from Tribulation occurs on the “Day of Vengeance” in which all who “disobey the Gospel are destroyed”!!! 2 Thess.1:6-10.
Quote:
How do you justify churches and Jews being recipients of God's wrath on Israel during the tribulation which is designed by God to bring the Jews back to Him?
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“Days of vengeance on this people” do not end until “God’s Mystery has been finished IN THE DAYS whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound that His wrath has come”! There is no wrath on Israel between the end of God’s Mystery as told to Daniel and the “Day of Wrath” which occurs on one of the Days after the 1260 days of great tribulation are fulfilled!! The Last Trump signals the Covenant-Day for the Salvation of Israel…as well as the 3 R’s: Resurrection, Rewards, Retribution!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mel,

I appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions. Unfortunately this is your area expertise and livelyhood and I do not have the time to research and answer you conclusions.

Obviously one of us will be correct and the other wrong and (as if I have a choice) I can live with that.

What do you suppose is the number one reason that of all the dispensational scholars of Eschatology you have arrived at a completely different paradym than they?

When one considers the monumental work of Pentecost and others upon what historical works do you attribute the awakeing of your current understanding last things?

thjplgvp

 

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I was raised on the Dispensational teachings of Larkin and Scofield before
I attended MBI in the 40's and sat under Dr. Ironside, the Archbishop of
Dispensationalism. I had questions about assumptions that avoided direct answers to the meaning of statements made by Jesus Himself!

In two texts, Jesus promised to "raise up every believer on the last day... and to gather the Elect from earth to heaven on one of the days after the great tribulation". If these Elect are Jews, as Scofield Bible Notes taught until 1973, then why would they "mourn" when Jesus appears to "gather them from earth to heaven"? In all my studies, I never found Pre-Trib teachers admitting the Elect of Mark 13:27 will be "gathered to heaven"; but only to the Elect of Matt.24:31 being "re-gathered to their land".

This and many other unproven assumptions did not phase my conviction that "all Israel will be saved" on the DAY their Messiah appears! They behold the Saints coming with Him while they "continue to mourn"!! All the Jews will "pray to escape and will be kept alive". Luke 21:36; Luke 17:33.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Can you show from the Bible that the Great Tribulation is the same as the term Wrath of God?

 

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?

 

Post-Trib, Pre-Wrath

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The "GREAT Day of God's and the Lamb's WRATH" occurs "in the days
AFTER the great tribulation...when Time shall be no longer; when God's
Mystery was finished (Past Tense) and in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is ABOUT to sound that `God's wrath has come'". Matt.24:29; Mark 13:24; Rev.10:6-7; Rev.6:12-17; Rev.11:18.

That means armies are "gathered to Armageddon (Rev.16:12-17) before the Last Plague completes God's thumos (anger) and God decrees `It is Done' and the Lamb opens Seal 6 for the DAY of their Wrath". For Rev. 16:17 ("It's Done") precedes Rev.6:17 ("Their Day of Wrath has come").

What evidence do you have to answer John Young's question as to
why the great tribulation period should be called a time of God's wrath?
Mel Miller

 

I would say that Revelation 6:17 is the tail-end of the Great Tribulation which fits nicely with the next chapter where the great multitude come out of Great Tribulation.
Just my 2 cents.

 

Amen, Brother Phil310 -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

Post-Trib, Pre-Wrath

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Phil310:

I do not wish to come across as being "pickey", but the "tale-end" of
the Great Tribulation occurs when Daniel's 1290 predicted days are "cut
short" as of the day the Beast kills the Two Witnesses. Matt.24:22;
Rev.11:3-7.

Jesus states that the unique signs of His coming and Presence will occur
"in the days (immediately) after the great tribulation". Mark 13:24; Matt.
24:29. John reveals that "chronos-time" is no longer sujbect to an
exact countdown "in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is ABOUT to
sound". Rev.10:6-7.

These facts are the basis for recognizing that Believers will begin to
"watch with the any-moment expectancy" of Christ's return in which
Jesus urges that we maintain constant vigilance in the context of the
armies that will have already "gathered to Armageddon". Rev.16:15-16.

That's why I am convinced Rev.16:12-17 must be fulfilled before Rev.
6:12-17 can begin to be fulfilled.

Mel Miller

 

Mel Miller: //That's why I am convinced Rev.16:12-17 must
be fulfilled before Rev.
6:12-17 can begin to be fulfilled.//

Rev 6:12-17 is early in the Tribulation period, before
the Antichrist is in full control, before the two witnesses
are slain mid-trib.

Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV1611):
And they cried with a lowd voice, saying, How long,
O Lord, holy and true, doest thou not iudge and
auenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were giuen vnto euery one
of them, and it was sayd vnto them, that they
should rest yet for a little season, vntill
their fellow seruants also, and their brethren
that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1611):
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor euer shall be.
22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake,
those dayes shall be shortned.

These are parallel passages.
Both show early in the tribulation day
those born-again, mostly gentile, church age,
Christian elect saints who were raptured/resurrected
at the dawn of the tribultaion day. They are in heaven talking
to Jesus (praying face-to-face) about the Jewish
Israeli elect saints who won't pray to God.


Not to mention:

Rev 6:12-14 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I beheld when he had opened the sixt seale, and loe, there was a great earthquake,
and the Sunne became blacke as sackecloth of haire, and the Moone became as blood.
Rev 6:13 And the starres of heauen fell vnto the earth, euen as a figge tree casteth
her vntimely figs when she is shaken of a mighty winde.
Rev 6:14 And the heauen departed as a scrowle when it is rolled together,
and euery mountaine and Island were moued out of their places.

Rev 16:18 -20 (KJV1611 Edition):
And there were voices and thunders, and lightnings:
and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were vpon the earth,
so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great Citie was diuided into three parts, and the Cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to giue
vnto her the cup of the wine of the fiercenesse of his wrath.
20 And euery yland fled away, and the mountaines were not found.

In the early earthquake, the mountains and islands are moved
out of their places, in the later earthquake the mountains
and islands are GONE.

 

Post-Trib, Pre-Trib Rapture

Ed Edwards,

Quote:
"In the early earthquake, the mountains and islands are moved out of their places, in the later earthquake mountains and islands are GONE".
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You argue that the Signs in Seal 6 occur years before Christ’s Second Coming! Jesus states these Signs indicate the DAY has come to destroy all the wicked!! You admit these Signs, in Matt.24:30, refer to Christ’s Second Coming; but you claim the Rapture of vs.31 refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture!!!

Since Jesus states “all the wicked will be destroyed on the same DAY” of these Signs, should you limit God’s power by claiming the “great earthquake” takes years to “move EVERY Mountain and Island out of their places”? Luke 17:27-30; Rev.6:14; Rev.16:20.

I agree the Martyrs must wait a “short time” to be avenged AFTER Seal Five! But since they must wait until the last Martyr “has been killed who should be killed”, you should conclude the great Earthquake of Seal Six occurs on the “same DAY” Christ comes to fulfill the Martyrs’ Prayer!! For all the Martyrs “out of the great tribulation” appear before God and the Lamb "after the last Plague empties in the air"...to praise God in the
Temple of heaven AFTER Signs of that DAY have already occurred!!!

The great quake of Rev.6:12-14 that begins to move EVERY mountain and island out of place occurs before the Martyrs enter the Temple in heaven in the following chapter! “No one can enter until the last Plague empties in the air”!! Rev.15:8. The Last Plague empties when Armies gather to plains of Armageddon; God decrees the End has Come; Jesus opens Seal Six because the “DAY of Wrath has come”!! This is the context in which all believers will heed Christ’s word to be “watching for His coming, being fully clothed" because they know and anticipate He is "coming as a thief”!!! Rev.16:15-17.

That’s just a small part of the evidence requiring Rev.16:12-17 to be fulfilled before Rev.6:12-17 and the answer to the Martyrs’ prayer can begin to be fulfilled! That’s when the great quake begins to “move EVERY mountain and island out of place”!! On that “same DAY” God’s “Cup of wrath” causes Rev.6:14 and Rev.16:20 to be completed in “the HOUR of Trial that is coming on all the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth"…on the DAY Christ appears!!! Rev.3:10; Luke 21:34-35.

God's wrath is announced as "having come" only at the HOUR of the 7th
Trumpet! The Last Trump!! For it alone proclaims the "appointed time has
come" for the three R's...Resurrection and Rewards to the Saints and
Retribution to "those who are destroying the earth". Rev.11:18.

Mel Miller

 

Friends,

I wish to clarify that the Post-Trib Rapture, in order to be the correct view, must also be a Pre-Wrath Rapture! The Last Martyr must be
killed before God's wrath avenges their blood!! The Seven Last Plagues
exhaust God's anger and are emptied before the Martyrs "come out from under the Altar" and enter the Temple in heaven after Seal Six opens on the "Day of God's Wrath"!!! Rev.15:8; Rev.6:9-11 (Their Prayer); Rev.16:5-11 (Martys still being killed during the Plagues; verse 6).

The "usual Pre-Wrath" view of the Rapture mis-places the Plagues after the Rapture! But that would allow the armies of the Beast to "repent" during the Plagues while they are still "shedding the blood of Martyrs and gathering to Armageddon!! God will avenge the Martyrs "on the Day of Wrath" launched by Seal Six!!! Rev.16:5-11 (Wicked refuse to Repent); Luke 17:27-30; 2Th.1:5-10.

Mel Miller