Post-trib rapture

[dwmoeller1]

In order to be fair for challenging pre-tribs to defend their position, I shall do the same for the post-trib position:

Here is a start:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When we will we all be changed (obviously in reference to the same event in I Thes 4)? At the *last* trump. When is the last trump? According to the Revelation and, more signficantly, Matt 24, the last trump comes immediately after the Great Trib. Thus, the rapture is posttrib.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Doesn't get much more explicit than this. When does the gathering of believers take place? Jesus says *after* the Great Trib.

Don't think this is in reference to the rapture? Then compare to this:

I Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Notice the elements are almost identical to the event in Matt 24 which occurs *after* the GT.

Then also compare these:

1 Thessalonians. 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Mt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Both the rapture of I Thes 4 and the second coming of Matt 24 are referred to as coming like a thief.

 

[canadyjd]

Agreed

peace to youraying:

 

[npetreley]

Hey, you asked us to defend it and then you gave away all the best ammunition!!

Here's one more logical argument to add:

The events described above all occur when the sun goes dark and the moon turns to the color of blood, which are the signs of the Day of the Lord. I could give an extensive scriptural proof, but I think it's obvious that the Day of the Lord begins after the great tribulation (see the Matt 24 quote you used above). With that in mind, read what Paul says to the Thessalonians:

2 Thess: 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Even most pre-tribbers would place the abomination of desolation (when the antichrist is revealed) in the middle of the 70th week, which is what ushers in the great tribulation. Notice in the above quote that the day of the Lord does not come until sometime AFTER the antichrist is revealed.

Now here's the logical part. Paul tells the Thessalonians that they can be sure that the day of the Lord hasn't come because it won't come until after the antichrist is revealed. What would be the point in telling them that if Paul assumed they'd be raptured 3 1/2 years before the antichrist would be revealed? He's giving them a landmark sign which they can use to recognize that the day of the Lord can't have arrived and gone -- but how can they use it if they're not there to see it? What's the point in telling them what they would have to see first if they won't see it because they've been raptured?

 

[dwmoeller1]

Hey, you asked us to defend it and then you gave away all the best ammunition!!

Sorry I wasn't clear. In one thread, I am asking pretribs to defend their position. I figured it would only be fair to be willing to defend my position so they could have their chance to pick it apart (as I plan on doing with theirs). Thats what this thread is about - me (and others, giving their defense of the posttrib position).

Also, part of the reason for this thread is that the posttrib position is simply whats left over after the pre/mid/pre-wrath positions are rejected. I want to demonstrate that the posttrib has positive support in Scripture. Too often, the defense of the posttrib position devolves to showing how the pretrib is wrong. I want to avoid that in this thread.

 

[npetreley]

That's cool. I was just kidding with you anyway.

By the way, I have my doubts that there is a remaining 70th week of Daniel. But since most pre-tribbers assume there's a delayed 70th week (and then they dub it the tribulation period, which does not have any support whatsoever in the Bible), I still used it as a reference point in my post.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: //The events described above all occur when the sun goes dark and the moon turns to the color of blood, which are the signs of the Day of the Lord. I could give an extensive scriptural proof, but I think it's obvious that the Day of the Lord begins after the great tribulation (see the Matt 24 quote you used above).//

Exactly, Amen even.

Do recall a DAY OF THE LORD already happened
(before the Great Tribulation Period):

On the day of Pentacost 33AD (some say 30AD so the
destruction of the Temple/Jerusalem in 70AD is 40
years later EXACTLY):

Act 2:16 -21 (KJV1611 Edition):
But this is that which was spoken by the Prophet Ioel,
17 And it shall come to passe in the last dayes
(saith God) I will powre out of my Spirit vpon all flesh:
and your sonnes and your daughters
shall prophesie, and your yong men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dreame dreames:
18 And on my seruants, and on my handmaidens,
I will powre out in those daies of my Spirit,
and they shall prophesie:
19 And I wil shew wonders in heauen aboue,
and signes in the earth beneath:
blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke.
20 The Sunne shall be turned into darkenesse,
and the Moone into blood,
before that great and notable day of the Lord come.
Act 2:21 And it shall come to passe,
that whosoeuer shall call on the Name of the Lord, shalbe saued.

BTW, which of the two following major theories of the
post-tribualtion only theory will you* be presenting?

1. the a-millinnial (i.e. figurative or spiritual)
Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
2. the pre-millinnial (physical) Second Coming of Jesus

*"you" here can be anybody who wants to answer the
question

 

[npetreley]

FWIW, I believe Jesus returns for real immediately after the signs of His coming. When (in the timeline) does His foot actually touch the earth? I don't recall if I even thought about that - it's been a long time since I studied it.

I'm just *guessing* because I'm not intimately familiar with the terms, but I guess you'd call me pre-millenial. I used to know that stuff (back when I read Things to Come, Dwight Pentacost) but like I said, it's been a long time...

 

[Ed Edwards]

Comparative time-lines of the future (the correct one is bolded
here, but discussed somewhere else):

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
(same as 2. Tribulation time)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom, in heaven
5. spiritual new heaven & new earth

Done-did preterist a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection -- already happened
2. Tribulation time -- you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event -- already happened
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom -- already happened
5. new heaven & new earth -- you are here


(Caveat: the milage of others will vary)

 

[dwmoeller1]

BTW, which of the two following major theories of the
post-tribualtion only theory will you* be presenting?

1. the a-millinnial (i.e. figurative or spiritual)
Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
2. the pre-millinnial (physical) Second Coming of Jesus

I have yet to see how it matters as arguments for either are basically the same. Can you give an example of where the two would have essentially different arguments for the posttrib rapture?

Post-trib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
(same as 2. Tribulation time)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom, in heaven
5. spiritual new heaven & new earth

As you can see, in both cases, the timelines are basically the same up the event we are discussing. Also, let me note that you are confused about the amil position. In the amil position, 4 is seen as occuring spiritually/literally during 0 and then having its full completion during 5. But thats for a different thread.

 

[dwmoeller1]

On the day of Pentacost 33AD (some say 30AD so the
destruction of the Temple/Jerusalem in 70AD is 40
years later EXACTLY):

Act 2:16 -21 (KJV1611 Edition):
But this is that which was spoken by the Prophet Ioel,
17 And it shall come to passe in the last dayes
(saith God) I will powre out of my Spirit vpon all flesh:
and your sonnes and your daughters
shall prophesie, and your yong men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dreame dreames:
18 And on my seruants, and on my handmaidens,
I will powre out in those daies of my Spirit,
and they shall prophesie:
19 And I wil shew wonders in heauen aboue,
and signes in the earth beneath:
blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke.
20 The Sunne shall be turned into darkenesse,
and the Moone into blood,
before that great and notable day of the Lord come.
Act 2:21 And it shall come to passe,
that whosoeuer shall call on the Name of the Lord, shalbe saued.

Wait a sec. The Scripture never says that the day of the Lord has occured. It says these things will happen before the day of the Lord and that they are already in the process of happening (the point of Acts 2 unless one takes the preterist position), but Scripture never once says that the day of the Lord occurs. Only if one argue the preterist position would one be able to say that it has.

But since we are on the matter of timelines, lets examine what Scripture says concerning the posttrib timeline:
1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

So according to Paul, the timeline is
1. Christ resurrected
2. Those who are Christs are resurrected at His coming
3. Then comes the end (which is described in Rev 20,21 and 22)

Since we know that Christ's coming is posttribulation and since we see here that the resurrection occurs at Christ's coming, then we can know that the rapture is posttribulational.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed Edwards:

BTW, which of the two following major theories of the
post-tribualtion only theory will you* be presenting?

1. the a-millinnial (i.e. figurative or spiritual)
Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
2. the pre-millinnial (physical) Second Coming of Jesus

Dwmoeller1: //I have yet to see how it matters as arguments
for either are basically the same. Can you give an example
of where the two would have essentially different
arguments for the posttrib rapture?//

It makes a difference in how the discussion goes.

I believe in a post-trib ressurection/rapture.
However, I do have some figures BASED ON SCRIPTURE
and LOGIC, that the pre-tribulation rapture would
(if held today) in excess of 200 Million persons.
The post-tribuation rapture (7 years after the pre-triubualtion
rapture) will only be of a few hundred people, if the Antichrist
is a reasonable threat.

So really among pretribulationist pre-millinnialists,
and post-tribulation onlyist pre-millinnialists -- the point
of discussion is ONLY if there is a pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
or not.

But between a-mills and pre-mills, there is a world-view
of differences.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Act 2:16 -21 (KJV1611 Edition):
But this is that which was spoken by the Prophet Ioel,
17 And it shall come to passe in the last dayes
(saith God) I will powre out of my Spirit vpon all flesh:
and your sonnes and your daughters
shall prophesie, and your yong men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dreame dreames:
18 And on my seruants, and on my handmaidens,
I will powre out in those daies of my Spirit,
and they shall prophesie:
19 And I wil shew wonders in heauen aboue,
and signes in the earth beneath:
blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke.
20 The Sunne shall be turned into darkenesse,
and the Moone into blood,
before that great and notable day of the Lord come.
21 And it shall come to passe,
that whosoeuer shall call on the Name
of the Lord, shalbe saued.

Wait a sec. The Scripture never says that
the day of the Lord has occured.
It says these things will happen before
the day of the Lord and that they are already
in the process of happening (the point of Acts 2
unless one takes the preterist position),
but Scripture never once says that
the day of the Lord occurs. Only if one argu
e the preterist position would one be able to say that it has.

I respectfully disagree.

Act 2:12-16 And they were all amazed,
and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter standing vp with the eleuen,
lift vp his voyce, and said vnto them, Ye men of Iudea,
& all ye that dwell at Hierusalem,
be this knowen vnto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose,
seeing it is but the third houre of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken
by the Prophet Ioel,

What is happening (each hearing one person's message
in their own language) was spoken of by Joel
INCLUDING:
Acts 2:20 (KJV1611 Edition):
The Sunne shall be turned into darkenesse,
and the Moone into blood,
before that great and notable day of the Lord come.

Two different days, each with the sun turning into
darkness & the Moon into blood:

1. The Great Day of the Lord
2. The Notable Day of the Lord

IMHO (in my humble opinion)
The Great Day of the Lord = The first coming of Jesus
The Notable Day of the Lord = The second coming of Jesus

 

[DQuixote]

Since we know that Christ's coming is posttribulation and since we see here that the resurrection occurs at Christ's coming, then we can know that the rapture is posttribulational.

........except that the church doesn't go through the Tribulation. Yea! We know from II Thessalonians Chapter 2 that after the Church is gone, raptured, caught up, the antichrist is going to make his appearance. The church age ends, the Tribulation begins. Christ's 2nd Coming is post-trib, pre-millinial, the church --- who? --- the church coming with him (at which point a super whup-up on bad guys takes place. Whoa!)

:tonofbricks: <---- post-trib theory collapses......... (finally found a use for those bricks!)

 

[dwmoeller1]

So really among pretribulationist pre-millinnialists,
and post-tribulation onlyist pre-millinnialists -- the point
of discussion is ONLY if there is a pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
or not.

But between a-mills and pre-mills, there is a world-view
of differences.

But there is not any significant difference in how they argue for a posttrib rapture. Sure, beyond that there is a large difference, but coming up to the point of the posttrib rapture, their arguments are nearly identical.

 

[dwmoeller1]

........except that the church doesn't go through the Tribulation. Yea! We know from II Thessalonians Chapter 2 that after the Church is gone, raptured, caught up, the antichrist is going to make his appearance. The church age ends, the Tribulation begins. Christ's 2nd Coming is post-trib, pre-millinial, the church --- who? --- the church coming with him (at which point a super whup-up on bad guys takes place. Whoa!)

How do we know this from II Thess 2?

Also lets assume you are right and examine the consequences of the position for I Cor 15.
First of all, would you agree that the resurrection of I Cor 15 is the same as the event in I Thess 4? I will assume so since I am not aware of any significant amount of people who hold otherwise. That being the case, consider I Cor 15:23
- who are "they who are Christ's"?
- what event is being referred to when Paul speaks of "at His coming"?

:tonofbricks: <---- post-trib theory collapses......... (finally found a use for those bricks!)

This really should be in the pretrib thread but what the hey. Before you go proclaiming the death of the posttrib position, lets examine your reasoning and support to see if it is as clear as you would claim. How does II Thess 2 support your claims for it?

 

[dwmoeller1]

What is happening (each hearing one person's message
in their own language) was spoken of by Joel
INCLUDING:
Acts 2:20 (KJV1611 Edition):
The Sunne shall be turned into darkenesse,
and the Moone into blood,
before that great and notable day of the Lord come.[/quote]

1. The sun and moon did not turn to blood. Thus, the prophecy was only partly fulfilled.
2. More significantly, the passage says these things happen BEFORE the day of the Lord comes, not *on* the day. Thus, even if they all did occur in Acts 2, this still does not logically mean that the day of the Lord occured. All it means is that the things which must happen *before* the day of the Lord occured. There is no point at which the passage says that the day of the Lord is occured/has occured. See the distinction?

Two different days, each with the sun turning into
darkness & the Moon into blood:

1. The Great Day of the Lord
2. The Notable Day of the Lord

IMHO (in my humble opinion)
The Great Day of the Lord = The first coming of Jesus
The Notable Day of the Lord = The second coming of Jesus

I am sorry but the greek won't support that. In the greek the endings for 'great' and 'notable' are the same and show they both modify the single word 'day'. In greek grammar this means that the words cannot rightly be viewed as speaking of seperate events but are instead amplifications of the same event. Grammaticaly in the greek, 'great' and 'notable' are speaking of the same day. Don't believe me, go find a greek scholar and ask them.

 

[Mel Miller]

From Ed Edwards:
"Wait a sec. The Scripture never says that the day of the Lord has occured. It says these things will happen before the day of the Lord and that they are already in the process of happening (the point of Acts 2
unless one takes the preterist position), but Scripture never once says that the day of the Lord occurs. Only if one argue the preterist position would one be able to say that it has. I respectfully disagree".

Two different days, each with the sun turning into darkness & the Moon into blood: 1. The Great Day of the Lord. 2. The Notable Day of the Lord.
_____________________________________________________________

Ed Edwards, the Pre-Trib, Post-Trib Fence Sitter:

In Post #41 of the Thread on 2 Thess.2, EE claims:

“The above scripture denotes the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; the gathering of Church Age Saints (AKA: elect, born-again, bride of Christ,
body of Christ, regenerated, etc.)” [EE believes Jesus taught this in
Mt.24:31 which Jesus Himself states will occur "after great tribulation"]!

"The rest of chapter 2 concerns the events between the gathering (i.e. Rapture/Resurrection) and the Second Coming of Christ in power and jugement: to destroy Antichrist and set up the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom”.
______________________________________________________________________________

Now, in Post #6 of the Thread on the Post-Trib Rapture, EE claims: “I think it's obvious the Day of the Lord begins after the great tribulation. Exactly, Amen even”. [But he also accepts Pentecost as another Day of the Lord so he can argue for TWO Raptures].

In Post #12 EE shows his confusion:

“IMHO the Great Day of the Lord = The first coming of Jesus.
The Notable Day of the Lord = The second coming of Jesus”.
[But Pentecost was after the first coming of Jesus].
_________________________________________________________________________

EE sits on the fence, unable to choose a single Rapture; but holds to two Raptures because of two Days of the Lord. He fails to grasp that the SIGNS begin the final Day of the Lord “BEFORE" the events of that Day occur! The 6th Seal is not even called the “Day of the Lord”!! Seven classes of men, hiding in the hills, call it “The GREAT (NOTABLE) DAY of God’s and the Lamb’s WRATH"!!! Rev.6;16-17.

It doesn’t take 7 years for God’s Wrath after 7 Plagues exhaust His anger!

It doesn’t take 42 months for His Wrath after Great Tribulation “completes God’s Mystery”...3 1/2 or more days remain after the 1260 days of "God's Mystery was finished"!! Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

It doesn’t take the full "Hour of Trial" to “destroy earth’s destroyers” at the 7th Trumpet where "God’s Wrath has come"!!! Rev.3:10; Luke 21:34-35; Rev.11:18. [That Day is coming "suddenly, like a snare; like a thief” according to both Jesus and Paul. Paul agrees with Jesus that it happens on the same Day Jesus appears "like a thief". I Thes.5:3 agrees with Rev.16:15 which is after the G.T.].


Is there any hope for you, my well meaning friend?! You need to settle on
the one Rapture that Jesus describes by stating: “In the days after that tribulation, the Son of Man will send the angels and (He) will gather (3rd
person singular) His Elect from the end of EARTH to the end of the SKY”!!
The Holman Christian Standard Bible endorsed by Lifeway!!! Pub. 1999.

Mel

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //The Holman Christian Standard Bible
endorsed by Lifeway!!! Pub. 1999.//

Note that in several of your sentences in post #17
of this thread the subject is 'Ed'.
Thank you, Sir Mel Miller, for the publicity.

The HCSB as a whole is copywrited in 2003.
It was 2004 before they shared a whole HCSB
Bible (OT & NT) with me, even though they
sold it to me in 2003.

 

[Mel Miller]

Mel Miller: //The Holman Christian Standard Bible
endorsed by Lifeway!!! Pub. 1999.//

Note that in several of your sentences in post #17 of this thread the subject is 'Ed'. Thank you, Sir Mel Miller, for the publicity.

The HCSB as a whole is copywrited in 2003. It was 2004 before they shared a whole HCSB Bible (OT & NT) with me, even though they sold it to me in 2003.

______________________________________________________________

Ed Ed,

My dear brother, it seems nothing I write will change your conclusions!
I admire your steady, stalwart, unflinching devotion to your convictions!!
I guess no amount of publicity can move you to reconsider the premises!!!

Mel

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thank you father Mel ...