Featured Post tribulation arguments

We will have "THLIPSIN" that is constriction or as the KJV says tribulation. However Jesus said in Revelation 3:10 He would keep the believers from the hour of "peirasmou" trial or tribulation that is about to be coming upon the whole world. Which is a totally different Greek word

 

Sorry, no. And you give several reasons why viewing the tribulation in the First Century as The Tribulation makes little sense. We will look at those as we go.

No, there will only be the One Tribulation that Christ refers to, however, that does not preclude a similar event taking place in that day, which I call "near-fulfillment."

An example would be Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilling Daniel, and in fact desolating the Temple. That did not stop Christ from foretelling a Tribulation which would be, as you point out yourself, a time worse than any the earth has ever seen, or will see.

The greatest example of near and multiple fulfillment is the Coming of Messiah.

Are there only one of those? Do we think Prophecy got it wrong because there will be another Coming of Christ?

So you think the events of the First Century even compare with the events of the 20th?

The first century will pale in comparison, and the 20th as well, for that matter...to what will take place during the Tribulation.

How would you know, you haven't even addressed the posts.

So when did Christ Return in the First Century?

Not sure who "you people" are, but would ask you to limit your comments to addressing what I have actually stated.

But that's okay, I understand...your theology forces you to insult rather than address. The A-millennial view is the very worst position one can embrace Eschatologically speaking.

Those who are pre-millennial maintain the harmony of Scripture, because we do not, as the A-mil has to...disannul a great many simple truths.

Here are a couple for you to consider:

1. That one thousand years is one thousand years;

2. That God will keep His promises to National Israel;

3. That Christ will return physically and establish His Kingdom here on earth;

4. That the events of Revelation speak of literal judgments which cannot be correlated to the First Century;

5. That the Book of Revelation is only consistent with itself and with the rest of Scripture when it is held in a futurist view.

The "generation" you speak of, for example...did not witness the Return of Christ.

The "Woman" of Revelation 12 refers to Israel, who was not protected in the Wilderness for 3 1/2 years followed by restoration to the Land, is another.

Actually, keeping them from picking up the forbidden bread which is maggot-ridden.

The A-mil view is simply a position embraced and developed by Protestants to further separate themselves from Catholicism.

So when did Christ return?

You talk on points you think you can address but ignore the ones you can't.

Answer the question.

Repeating an error doesn't reinforce it, lol. You need to bring the Bible into your theology once in a while.

For some, I would agree, however, not for all. For some of us it is simply a matter of balancing Scripture.

That means all of it: you don't have the luxury of spiritualizing to the point where you eliminate the teachings altogether. And that is precisely what is done in the A-millennial view.

Totally irrelevant.

But that is all you know, isn't it.

You can't debate the Doctrine so obscure the issue with irrelevant charges.


God bless.

 

As I said, speculation built upon your imaginations. There is not going to be TWO great tribulations, "such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be". It happened to that generation of Christ's day.

 

That we go through tribulation does not negate that the Tribulation Christ teaches in the Gospels and described in Revelation...is a specific period in Biblical History which is yet future.

So negating that prophesied period by equating it to everyday tribulation we expect in this world is a bad idea.

You can let her know once you have come to better understand what is in view.

And by the way, I hope she is doing well now.

Now consider the period Christ speaks about. Consider the description of events in Revelation.

You will have, in a seven year period...half of the world's population dead. You will have great catastrophic geographical and astronomical events. You will have people being put to death for being faithful to Christ. You will have Antichrist in charge of the world.

Been through anything like that?

You do if you deny His teaching. The Tribulation will take place according to the Inspiration of God as defined in Revelation. God will fulfill all Prophecy completely, and there is still promises of God that remain unfulfilled to this day. Topping the list is the Return of Christ and the establishing of the Kingdom prophesied by the Old Testament as well as Christ. In that Kingdom God has promised Israel is restored to her former glory, and that the Son of David will Rule. This promise is reiterated in Revelation (He will rule with a rod of iron). In that Kingdom there will be long life, a man dying at 100 years of age being called a child.

We have to Jefforsonize Scripture to negate all that remains to be fulfilled.

This is true, Christ is our Lord, but, the day comes when He will lay claim to the earth and rule it physically:


Revelation 11:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


At the end of that specific period this is what will happen:


Revelation 19:11-14

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


This precedes a thousand year reign, which is obviously speaking about a physical reign for we would not limit Christ's reign to one thousand years. Hence this thousand years is a specific period as well.


God bless.

 

So you deny that there was a Tribulation which fulfilled the events described in Daniel? You see First Century events fulfill those, but not what took place back then?

And answer the question: when did Christ Return as depicted in Revelation?


God bless.

 

Please answer the question: how did that generation see...


Matthew 24:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


...?


God bless.

 

When did that generation see...


Matthew 25:31-34

King James Version (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


...?


God bless.

 

No.

The events of 'that generation' fulfilled much of what was spoken by the prophet Daniel.

Answer this question: pinpoint the passage in Revelation where Christ sets foot on terra firma.

 

But when did Christ come?

Let's look at those "two" tribulations. I assume you are referring to the siege of Jerusalem under Titus in 70 A.D. Let me quote a portion of it as told by Josephus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(AD_70)

Josephus claims 1.1 million Jews killed (or mostly Jews). Then 97,000 captured and enslaved. We know that the Temple was destroyed and Israel, as we know it, was dispersed.

Let's compare it with the "tribulation" of the holocaust, not to mention the first and second world wars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Of the 11 million killed one million were Jewish children.
IOW, the number of children murdered during the holocaust is equal to the number of all the Jews killed under Titus.

Which "tribulation" was greater? The eleven million during the Holocaust or the one million during the time of Titus? The two don't even compare. Hitler's attempt to exterminate the Jews was far more devastating to Israel than was the attempt of Titus.

The nation of Israel has been the object of the world's hatred since its inception. Anti-semitism still reigns, and signs of that are seen even on this board. But someday Israel as a nation will be restored and as a nation will be saved, accepting Christ as their Messiah.

This will happen just after The Great Tribulation!

 

The 'coming' of the great tribulation was this one:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

No other slaughter/genocide in history, including the massacres at Merv and Nanking, matches that which occurred at Jerusalem A.D. 70. The Jews virtually self destructed, it was suicide, the infighting/civil war/self destruction that broke out among 'that generation' killed as many or more as the Roman army did. They literally became demon possessed mad men that turned on each other. From that aspect alone it was indeed "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be".


43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

 

Then you make moot your argument. But I appreciate you answering the question.

But how is Prophecy always fulfilled? Is it not in entirety?

Again, I can view those events as a fulfillment, just not The Fulfillment, just as Christ's Coming was not the final fulfillment of what Prophecy foretold. He did come, but no-one knew that "many" of the promises foretold would be fulfilled at a Second Coming. When He returns, Prophecy will be fulfilled in entirety.

And if I exclude a balanced Prophecy, your question might be valid. But, we do not just demand the answer from Revelation, but make a balanced view from all Prophecy.

So the answer to your question is that while w may not say Christ sets foot on terra firma in Revelation, we do see that here:


Zechariah 14

King James Version (KJV)

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


And, some might argue here:


Acts 1:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


...the point being He will return to the Mount of Olives, just as Prophecy states He will.

So now we arrive at a new question for you: when did Christ fulfill Zechariah 14?


God bless.

 

That is not what he asked you.

So the world is the Kingdom that God gave when He visited "great tribulation" on the First Century?

The problem with that is that they did not have the Kingdom of God (and a physical context is demanded because believers do have the Kingdom of God from the eternal perspective), and if they did, why would He take away that Kingdom?).

In view is National Israel (v.45), and the Kingdom is the sphere of God's rule within the framework of the Law:


2 Chronicles 2:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 Then Huram the king of Tyre answered in writing, which he sent to Solomon, Because the Lord hath loved his people, he hath made thee king over them.

12 Huram said moreover, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, that made heaven and earth, who hath given to David the king a wise son, endued with prudence and understanding, that might build an house for the Lord, and an house for his kingdom.


It was taken from them and given to "a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." That does not negate His promise to restore Israel.

That did not happen in the First Century, and it has still not happened. But it will.

The events of that day do not compare with the events of the 20th century.

Stalin is a far worse antichrist than any emperor ever dreamed of being. We could probably argue Hitler as well.

But aside from that, the fact is that Revelation prophesies that half the world's population will die within the Tribulation.

That did not happen in the first century either.

The Lord mentions that generation (in Christ's day) numerous times, such as here:


Matthew 12:41

King James Version (KJV)

41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Shall we also argue that this took place in the First Century?


God bless.

 

Obviously, there is no such place, but there doesn't need to be.

Acts 1:11. 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'

So He left visibly; He will return visibly.
He left from earth; He will return to earth.
He left in a body that could be touched and could eat (1 John 1:1; Luke 24:39-43); He will return with such a body.
Clouds obscured Him; clouds will part to reveal Him.

That's why I can't go with the Preterist position.

As for tribulation: we're in it now; we've always been in it, and we'll be in it until the Lord returns (eg. Luke 21:7-19). It does appear that things will get even worse for Christians just before the Lord returns (Rev. 11:7-10; 13:6-10).

 

That pales in contrast to The Holocaust.
"The Tribulation" as described and prophesied in other scriptures includes God's wrath over all the world, not just one city. You scripture is confined to the troubles of Jerusalem, and that is all. There is yet to come a Tribulation that will affect all the world.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
--In this verse alone one-quarter of the population of the earth is killed. If the population of the world reaches 8 billion at the time of the coming of Christ, that would be two billion that would die. (leaving 6 billion)

Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
--Now a third of the remaining six billion is killed. That leaves 4 billion.
Just by this time half of the world population is killed. This is the Great Tribulation such as has never seen before. It affects all on the earth.

You haven't seen anything yet. And yes, much worse has happened. It seems you have not read in detail about the holocaust or the first and second world wars. Wars that affect the entirety of this earth and millions of more people are far worse than one battle that affects just one city.

One battle--one city. No comparison to the the Great Wars of this world.

 

It's a loaded question, lol, and about as useful as asking someone to show the Flood occurring in Genesis 2.

Thought you might be interested, though, to know that while it might state that in specific terms in Revelation, when we balance Scripture the question is answered...


Zechariah 14

King James Version (KJV)

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


And I agree that His return "in like manner" refers to His visible return to the Mount of Olives.


God bless.

 

Another argument that should be looked at is the insistence that "The First Resurrection" of Revelation 20 clarifies that a Pre-Trib Rapture couldn't have possibly occurred.

Couple of problems with that argument:

First (and no pun intended), the word "first" (protos) can mean either sequence, or rank. Sequence is doubtful because this is not the first resurrection (in sequence). At the very least we can say, if there is no pre-trib rapture, that the rapture of the Two Witnesses is the first. And since we know "first" cannot possibly refer to sequence, then that destroys their argument. Since the Rapture of the Two Witnesses takes place at the mid-point of the Tribulation, those who take a Mid-Trib view are actually better equipped to defend that view than the Post-Trib believer. Though the Post-Trib view offers more arguments, none of them are as convincing as the fact that the Two Witnesses are Raptured at the Mid-Point. While we do not see the Church raptured them, non-mention is how some build doctrine.

Secondly, that resurrection indicates only tribulation Martyrs are raised. Paul makes it clear all will be raised, both living and dead Saints, so we can see this could not be the Rapture taught by Paul.

How this is dealt with by some would be to spiritualize the Two Witnesses into the Testaments (Old and New). That is an unlikely interpretation because we cannot have Antichrist killing the Bible and the Bible lying in the street for three days, right? We do not see the Bible caught up to Heaven. But we do see the Two Witnesses said to be men who minister for 3 1/2 years, are killed, then Raptured (and the Rapture of the Church is first and foremost a Resurrection).

The Pre-Tribulation view is the only reasonable view which can be reconciled to all Prophecy.

God bless.

 

It's important if it matters to you whether Christ is reigning from heaven or on earth in Rev 20.

(just one of those lil' trivial things)

 

The Holocaust is fulfillment of totally different prophecy than the Great Tribulation where God ended the first covenant with great violence and wrath.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire. Rev 17

...i.e., the curses of Lev 26 & Dt 28 laid upon the Jews over the past two millennia. Not a doubt in my mind Hitler was the personification of one of those 'ten horns'.

 

Dream on. Maybe you can persuade the admins to create a 'dispies only' forum.