Post-tribulation doctrine

Danrusdad, since you have mentioned Matthew 24:29 as saying "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...." as a post-tribulation rapture statement, which it most certainly is, let me quote Oswald J. Smith in his essay Tribulation or Rapture--Which?:

I need not point out that there is no pretribulation Rapture in Matthew 24. The Second Coming is unmistakably placed "immediately after the Tribulation" (verse 29), and I was forced to the conclusion that if the Rapture was to be ‘before" the Tribulation, the Lord Jesus Christ would certainly have given some hint of it at least. He was dealing with the End-Time of the Age. It is unthinkable that He would have spoken so minutely of the Tribulation without stating that the Church would escape. Instead, He purposely led His hearers to the belief that His followers would be in it. Hence, I was staggered, nor could I honestly defend my previous position.

So, when I again faced the people, I said sufficient to let them know that I questioned my former stand and saw evidence of a post-tribulation Rapture. For, as I read Matthew 24 and 25, I saw that many things, as prophesied by the Lord Jesus Christ, simply had to take place before Jesus could come, namely: "All these things" (verse 33), especially the prediction regarding the preaching of the Gospel. See Mark 13:10, and note the significance of the word "first". Thus, since God’s future program could not be set aside, there could be no "any moment expectation" of Christ’s Return. We are to watch, watch as prophecy after prophecy is fulfilled, ever looking forward to His Appearing; and, in the End-Time, to watch as never before, and to always be ready, for none can ever know how quickly the events predicted might come to pass and Christ return.

Click here for all of Dr. Smith's famous article

 

So in other words, you are a pre-tribber who just happens to recognize that Matthew teaches the return of Christ after the tribulation.

What you are forgetting is that Matthew quotes Jesus as saying that Daniel wrote of it. Jesus does call the 7 years the tribulation and the Holman Bible Dictionary, which I quoted above, also defines the term. It seems as if you are saying that The Bible doesn't mean what it says or doesn't say what it says.

We don't agree. This doctrine is the post-tribulation rapture before the beginning of the 1000 years. Matthew 24 is Christ's teaching to his disciples and refers to Daniel.

 

As far as I know, Danrusdad, you are on your own on your definitions. I guess that you are saying that you believe, then, in what is normally called the mid-tribulation doctrine.

The Antichrist has a 7-year reign. Therefore, it is proper to call the tribulation 7 years. If you want to break it in half and call the last half the Great Tribulation, you are not alone on that point.

There are 3 main doctrinal positions: pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib. You are tying up Revelation and Matthew 24, which I am not. I am dealing with strictly a post-trib position from the verses that I have listed several times. I am merely trying to show the sequence of events in the future; to go into Revelation for something other than the sequence of events in the future is outside of my line of discussion at this time.

For purposes of discussion, the normal and standard term for your doctrinal belief is mid-tribulation.

 

Well, there already is an accepted name for what you are advocating. There may be refinements within your position, but it is still a mid-tribulation position in that it is not pre-trib or post-trib.

And I have referenced Holman on the fact that the 7 years is called the Tribulation. You can hardly expect a layman to get involved in a discussion such as you are asking for over the nature of the 70th week when you yourself concede that standard practice is to call it the Tribulation. At any rate, we both agree that you do not believe in the Post Tribulation Rapture Doctrine that is the historic majority doctrine of the Christian church worldwide.

 

We have seen that our blessed hope is the return of Our Lord And Saviour Jesus Christ. We have seen that Daniel foretold the year that Jesus would be born. Jesus refers to Daniel. However, Jesus is cut off and Jerusalem is destroyed in 70 AD.

In answer to the questions of the disciples, Jesus has told his disciples what to look for at the end. Jesus has told us to look for the Antichrist foretold by Daniel in Chapter 9 verse 27 where Daniel predicts that the Antichrist "shall confirm the convenant with many for one week" which is 7 years. But, Daniel says, in the middle of the 7 years, Antichrist will enter what has to be a third Temple in Jerusalem and defile it--the abomination of desolation.

Now, Jesus says to his disciples:

Matthew 24:15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 

Read what Paul said:

II Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

In the verses posted above II Thessalonians 2:1-12, Paul sets forth the time-table for the Second Coming of Our Lord And Saviour Jesus Christ.

Paul refers to the coming great apostasy or falling away when many will abandon Christianity for various reasons that the reader should tell me what he thinks they may be. I infer that it will be for all the usual reasons that we hear nowadays. Already we see American culture becoming increasingly secular as European culture has been for a long time.

And then Paul mentions that the man of sin, the son of perdition, will be revealed to us. Paul tells more of what the abomination of desolation will be in that the Antichrist will sit in the Temple (a third Temple as the second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD by Rome, as you know) and say that he is God. He will have the power of Satan but Antichrist will be limited by God in that Edom and Moab will escape out of his hand (Daniel 11:41). That is why the abandoned ancient city of Petra in Edom is thought to be the place where the Jews will flee during the Tribulation.

So the Church goes from Tribulation to Glory as Jesus returns--our blessed hope--and destroys Antichrist with the spirit of his mouth and the brightness of his coming.

Bless His Holy Name!

 

What is wrong with honest debate? The Post Tribulation doctrine is the majority doctrine worldwide and it is the historic doctrine. In America it has not been heard in recent years because both Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism have purchased what once was a lowly Pentecostal doctrine and now they even deny that that is where they got it.

But setting all that aside, Paul clearly teaches in II Thessalonians that the church goes from tribulation to glory because Paul says that Jesus will not return until we see Antichrist falsely declare himself to be God.

 

The case for this doctrine, Archeryaddict, is so strong that there seldom is any debate about the verses and what they say. Christ was clearly speaking privately to the Disciples in Matthew 24 and Paul was clearly writing to Christians in Thessalonians 2.

And John clearly is writing to Christians in I John 2:18--I know, I posted the reference in error above and I am sorry for the error.

I John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:7 (KJV) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

Continuing with the post-tribulation doctrine, I can do no more than quote Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible on the passage of II Thessalonians 1:7-10. Since his comment is printed as one long paragraph, I am making it bold to make it easier for you, Dear Reader, to read it. I am also adding spaces so keep in mind that this is really one paragraph, Dear Reader.

Religion, if worth anything, is worth every thing; and those have no religion, or none worth having, or know not how to value it, cannot find their hearts to suffer for it. We cannot by all our sufferings, any more than by our services, merit heaven; but by our patience under sufferings, we are prepared for the promised joy.

Nothing more strongly marks a man for eternal ruin, than a spirit of persecution and enmity to the name and people of God. God will trouble those that trouble his people.

And there is a rest for the people of God; a rest from sin and sorrow. The certainty of future recompence is proved by the righteousness of God. The thoughts of this should be terrible to wicked men, and support the righteous.

Faith, looking to the great day, is enabled partly to understand the book of providence, which appears confused to unbelievers. The Lord Jesus will in that day appear from heaven. He will come in the glory and power of the upper world. His light will be piercing, and his power consuming, to all who in that day shall be found as chaff. This appearance will be terrible to those that know not God, especially to those who rebel against revelation, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the great crime of multitudes, the gospel is revealed, and they will not believe it; or if they pretend to believe, they will not obey it. Believing the truths of the gospel, is in order to our obeying the precepts of the gospel. Though sinners may be long spared, they will be punished at last. They did sin's work, and must receive sin's wages. Here God punishes sinners by creatures as instruments; but then, it will be destruction from the Almighty; and who knows the power of his anger?

It will be a joyful day to some, to the saints, to those who believe and obey the gospel. In that bright and blessed day, Christ Jesus will be glorified and admired by his saints. And Christ will be glorified and admired in them. His grace and power will be shown, when it shall appear what he has purchased for, and wrought in, and bestowed upon those who believe in him.

Lord, if the glory put upon thy saints shall be thus admired, how much more shalt thou be admired, as the Bestower of that glory! The glory of thy justice in the damnation of the wicked will be admired, but not as the glory of thy mercy in the salvation of believers.

How will this strike the adoring angels with holy admiration, and transport thy admiring saints with eternal rapture! The meanest believer shall enjoy more than the most enlarged heart can imagine while we are here; Christ will be admired in all those that believe, the meanest believer not excepted.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Everyone--pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib--agree that just a split second before the rapture "the dead in Christ shall rise first."

That is what Paul wrote in I Thessalonians 4:16. If we can place the timing of this first resurrection, then we can place the timing of the rapture.

 

Revelation 20:1 (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

To conclude this study of post-tribulation doctrine, we are looking for the timing of the first resurrection. We have it given to us by John in Revelation. It happens right after Satan is locked up for 1000 years by the angel come down from Heaven with the key to Hell and a great chain. That gives us the first resurrection just before the 1000 years, or the Millennium, and at the end of the Great Tribulation.

Some said that when started this thread that I would be torn to pieces or picked to pieces by the pre-trib and mid-trib believers. Mostly, this doctrine has been ignored by them.

This is a strong doctrine, believed by the majority of Christians worldwide and dating from the church fathers 2000 years ago. It is impossible to show another doctrine, in my opinion, from The Holy Bible. Most who reject this doctrine already have the idea that they are not going, as Christians have always believed, from tribulation to glory. With that idea already in mind, they then look for verses that they say mean that the Christian goes right to glory without tribulation. Usually, they fail in logic, sadly. No one wants to go from tribulation to glory, but I believe that Christ has taught us to watch out because we are going to see the Antichrist and suffer the tribulation and then go to glory as Jesus returns for a second coming to earth, our blessed hope!

O Jesus, may I be worthy to suffer for your Holy Name. Amen.

 

One takes the literal meaning first if it makes sense. We are clearly told that there are 2 resurrections--one for the dead in Christ and one for the damned at the end of the Millennium. There is no hint in the Scripture of "stages."

Why would Jesus give the Disciples (Christians) warning about the Antichrist? Because Christians are going to see Antichrist and survive his tribulation (to be either resurrected from the dead or raptured) to glory.