Post-tribulation doctrine

Yes it is! (OK I should have added "IMO").

That is not a cop out, that is an opinion (which is more than Mr. strong gave).

HankD

 

Interesting that Dr. Oswald J. Smith
mentions Mark 13:10 and it's parallel verse
Matthew 24:14.

As a pretribulation rapture/resurrection-ist,
i believe this passage shows that the church age
(AKA: Gentile Age) still continues.
Since 61AD people have been saying that this
verse has been fulfilled.

-------------------------------------------
Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.


Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.
-----------------------------------

Oswald J. Smith: "Hence, the greatest incentive
to missionary work is the Second Coming of Christ."

Amen, Brother Oswald J. Smith -- Preach it!
Evangelize while the Church Age continues.
(Not the Church Age is terminated by the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection which could happen at any time
maybe but on God's time for sure.

 

cmg, I still believe that even though nothing at all is said of what happened to them afterwards, my take on it is still more in line with scripture for several reasons (human logic here admittedly);

1- What if one of those were Adam? If Adam suddenly appeared living in an extremely advanced age (compared to the Garden of Eden) - how do you think he would have fared? (Now, wouldn't that have been a good time to ask him about what he was thinking!!!) Would he have recognized the temple and it's mode of worship? What kind of work would he have done to survive until he re-died again? Where would he have lived? Granted these questions sound silly but if you follow the thought that they went into the city and later died, - these questions are relevant.

2- Elijah and Enoch were "translated to heaven." They were living at the time they were "translated to heaven." Why is it outside the realm of a realistic possibility that "the many" that were raised from the dead were not "translated to heaven" also?

3- In all of the other resurrections that Jesus performed as miracles while on earth, he restored them to a normal life and to the enviornment that they had come from.

I, personally think that perhaps the reason scripture omits that they returned to heaven with Jesus (if, taking the position that the possibility exists) could have been because, the all-knowing Christ, knew that it would have beed fodder for those who would pervert the scriptures on the resurrection to come. That is to be "THE" resurrection of all resurrections. What was to have been a miraculous "example" for confirmation of Jesus' spoken word could so easily have been misconstrued by those who would pervert his message by claiming that the resurrection was already past - a message in fact which Paul speaks of.

Now, about this statement;

Absolutely!

However, did I mis-understand this?

 

My only comment on this is that the "protection by God" is in Christ through His Word just as in the early church. It was their faith in who Christ was and the promise of their redemption and eternal salvation that the early Christians willingly were fed to the lions rather than forsake their belief in Christ. Christ never took Christians "out of persecution" but "was with them all the way through it!"

 

I dunno. No offense against Strong, Er, Matthew Henry or OJ Smith but I don't like to be identified with another person's (non-apostolic) personal theology (others feel comfortable doing this and that is fine, I'm not implying a spiritually superiority to anyone just that I have a different comfort level concerning the matter).

My own view of the Second Coming is contained in a set of Scriptures concerning His return in which He gave us commandments to keep.

A few of which are:

Acts 1
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mark 13
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

James 5
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

These are things which we can all do without a debate.

HankD

 

Church mouse guy: "The main issue seems to be that the pre-tribulation people think that there are stages in the first resurrection. They have said that Lazarus, the people raised on the first Good Friday, and Jesus himself are all part of the first stage."

Nobody i recall in this topic said that.
I know you can demolish foolish strawmen.
I am pre-trib and agree, that is a stupid teaching.
So what have you gained by discombumerating this
strawman -- franky, nothing.

I think you have done a pretty good job describing your
post-tribulation doctrine. Recommend
you stick with it and leave the pretrrib strawmen
demonution derby alone

 

hurch mouse guy: "OK, Ed, but I thought that the pre-tribbers were telling me that the first resurrection was in stages and that proof of that was the resurrections that happened in the New Testament--to which I added a question about a resurrection in the Old Testament."

I agree as a pretribber that the first resurrection is in
stages.

I do not agree as a pretribber that all the resurrections
in the new testament are part of the first resurrection.
The parts of the first resurrection ("first resurrection"
is used in Revelation chapter 20) are specified
in REVELATION CHAPTER 20.

Revelation 20:4 (HCSB)
"Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge.

I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands.

They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years."

Notice two groups:

1. people ruling on thrones
2. people beheaded for their testimony of Jesus

TWO GROUPs - is two times to much?
This is a hint of phased rapture/resurrection.

Church Mouse guy: "There is no evidence in The Holy Bible
of stages or a secret rapture."

There is no evidence you will accept of stages
in the first resurection.
Again, i don't teach a "secret rapture".
The whole world will know something is going on
when the rapture happens. Probably the Antichrist
will have the best explanation of it, the one
most people left behind will accept.

Anyway, you stick to postribulation rapture, something
you seem to know about.

All: there are two major theories that teach
postribulation rapture ONLY. YEs, i do believe there
will be a post-tribulation/pre-millinnial rapture/resurection
-- i believe in a pre-tribulation/pre-millinnial rapture/resurection.
Don't let people confuse you by saying that the Bible
does not say "two raptures". It does not say "two raptures".
However, if one can count:
1. pretirublation rapture/resurrection
2. postrilbulation rapture/resurrection

Note the Bible also does not explicitly say
"one and only one rapture after the Tribulation period".

Excuse this interruption of the post-tribulation rapture
only theories. BTW, nobody seems to explicitly noted there
are multiple post tribulation and how they differ.
Never mind, i'll mention if

--------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: <-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection <done happened
2. Tribulation time <-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event <done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <done happened
5. new heaven & new earth <-- or maybe you are here

Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!
--------------------------------------------

Church mouse guy:
"Instead, I have had smooth sailing and have been ignored because the post-tribulation doctrine is overwhelming. "

You confuse us letting you have your chance
to describe one of the three post-tribulation theories
as victory? Tee Hee, enjoy your delusion.

BTW, we have about half a dozen other topics where
the pretrib view is beating the socks off the dark-side's
gloomy postribualtion view.

 

Trailblazer prefers the PAN-THEORY;

1- Trailblazer is IN the tribulation. Trailblazer knows it because of all the fighting going on about the theorizing of "THE MILLENIUM."

2- Trailblazer is going "to be taken" while my "unsaved loved ones" are left behind because everybody's been too busy fighting about it on this board instead of doing the "job" Christ commanded them to do.

3- Trailblazer will blissfully live in eternity with no more pain, nor more sorrow and no more tears because I won't have to do battle with the Darbyites that can't see the forest for the trees.

So, the "THE PLAN" is simple. Everything is going to PAN OUT ALL RIGHT FOR TRAILBLAZER ON THE DAY CHRIST RETURNS!

 

I have sat with quite a few JW's in the past years (they even brought their local Greek "expert" teacher out to try and convert me) and it is so sad to see where talking scripture with a dispensationalist is sooooo eerily the same as talking to a JW. They have for YEARS taken every single rebuttal that a Christian uses against their doctrine and literally hold classes to teach their street people how to respond. You can tell that most all the answers dispensationalist give are "canned" answers also. If you check my post, you will see how most all of them have fallen "quite silent" on Luke 17 because Luke 17 is so literal. They either have to deny Christ's words or give up their false theology. They won't so they slide into the sunset quietly.

This is sad too because one of the first acts Jesus did was to cleanse the temple (the church) of the moneychangers that had used a place of worship to make money off the people. So will he do when he returns again, I'm certain of. The booksellers make millions off the people for a doctrine that does absolutely no one any good has not borne good fruit.

Lastly, the real root of the problem is this

Again...
lust of the flesh? = millions from books
lust of the eyes? = greed
lust of the pride of life = the adoration of the people and the fear of loosing it.

 

An after thought...My purpose in referring to those who hold to the doctrine of dispensationalism as "Darbyites" is a means of trying to get them to see that it is the erroneous doctrine of a fallible human being's doctrine that they have chosen to accept rather than the words of Christ - especially in Luke 17 if nothing else as a starting point.

When anyone chooses to follow an 'INDIVIDUAL'S' doctrine they rightly are referred to as "...ites" or "...ians." In this particular aspect of the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ, they follow J. N. Darby teachings instead of Christ's. It is not a judgment call, just a wake-up call.

 

Any time now you posties can define, explaine,
examine, discuss the POST-TRIBULATION
DOCTRINE. Nobody here who bothers to read
your writings here is likely
to be fooled into thinking
that dissing non-post-trib doctrines helps
build any post-trib doctrine.

We pretribs are content to toast our posties
in the other seven eschatology topics
not here in the Post-trib safe house

 

See what I mean????

 

It starts here, Ed,

Christ taught us what doctrine to hold concering his return - no one else. Pre-Mil Rapture is unscriptural when compared to Christ's own literal, contextual, hermeneutical and escatological words in Luke 17.

 

It starts here,

Christ taught us what doctrine to hold concering his return - no one else. Pre-Mil Rapture is unscriptural when compared to Christ's own literal, contextual, hermeneutical and escatological words in Luke 17.