Post-tribulation doctrine

My post will not be accepted because:
Sorry, we do not permit the following HTML tag
or attribute: Parenthesis in HTML tag

I'll go remove all the parens and see if it
wil post

I managed to get it working by dividing
the post into two posts

[ January 17, 2005, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

Trailblazer: "Pre-Mil Rapture is unscriptural when compared
to Christ's own literal, contextual, hermeneutical
and escatological words in Luke 17."

You have me at an advantage. YOu know I'm
pretrib rapture, pre-millinnial Second Coming, traditional
dispensational, futurist. I've no idea where you stand.

Anyway, you fail by quoting scripture, even bolding part
of it to convey that that Christ's own literal, contextual,
hermeneutical and escatological words in Luke 17 show
you unkown escatological postion.

Please cut the smoke and mirrors and explain the
your eschatatological position, if any. Thank you.

Trailblazer: "Now, step up to the plate - which dispensationalist
is going to have the courage to accept or deny
the words of Christ?"

I accept the words of Christ.
But i have an andvantage over you, i know
what then mean.


Note that the first is my pretribulation understanding
of pretribulation. The last is my understanding of the peterist
postion. The other two are the two pretribulation
positions i've seen. Again, if my pretribualtion truth
hids the understanding of what your post-trib theory, then
it is up to you to explain how your post-trib theory works.

This is a topic for expounding the post-tribulation theories,
not for dissing the pretrib position NOR expounding
the pretrib position.

BTW, repeating what you confused us with again and again
is NOT COMMUNICATION. Maybe if you would figure out how to
make bigger letters or maybe red ones?

Trailblazer: //"There will be TWO women grinding TOGETHER; ONE WILL BE TAKEN and THE OTHER LEFT."(the resurrection of the saved and the unsaved – OCCURS AT THE SAME TIME - no 1,000 years apart here either! One goes one way and the other goes the other way at the same time!).//

You misread this passage. one goes somewhere, one goes no where
(hense the phrase "left behind", "left" is the opposite
of "goes" ).

 

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: <-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection <done happened
2. Tribulation time <-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event <done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <done happened
5. new heaven & new earth <-- or maybe you are here

 

Wow Trailblazer, the Luke 17 thing here, too? I'll post my reply here as well then...

Trailblazer,

Re Luke 17, interesting how you put the “s” in verse 26 in parenthesis. Did you think we would not notice that it was plural not singular - en tais hmerais (h=eta). Days (plural) also appears in verse 22.

In any case, let’s look at the passage starting with v. 24

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

The second coming will be a “global event” from one part under heaven to the other part under heaven.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Jesus must die first.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Life was going on as usual when the flood came. It will be going on as usual when Christ returns in judgement upon unbelievers.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Same idea as with Noah, life as normal, then comes judgement.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Jesus will come on a set day. His coming will be in one day.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Lots wive looked back to the city with longing and was judged. If they are to escape judgment on that day, they must not turn back to the city.

32 Remember Lot’s wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Covered this on another thread, but when judgement comes, you do not want to be taken. You want to be left. After the flood, everyone else was dead. Noah and his family was left. After the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his daughters were left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

After the judgement that accompanies His second coming, the vultures will eat the flesh of those judged.

NONE OF THIS IN ANY WAY DISCOUNTS OR DISCREDITS PREMILLENNIALISM!!!

I ask, does 3 singular uses of “day”, minus 2 plural uses of “days”, leaving us with only 1 net use of day still have the same impact? Pardon my silliness for a moment. I have lowered my hermeneutical practices to a substandard level for a moment to make a point.

The fact that Jesus will return on one set day, to which I readily assent, in no way indicates that all the events of the “day of the Lord” will occur on one day! Just check out every instance of “day of the Lord” to realize the folly of your contention from Luke 17. Here are the 27 occurrences of the phrase in the AV – Isa 2:12; 13:6, 9; Jer 46:10; Ezek 13:5; 30:3; Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14; Amos 5:18, 20; Obad 1:15; Zeph 1:7, 8, 14, 18; 2:2, 3; Zech 14:1; Mal 4:5; Acts 2:20; 1Cor 5:5; 2Cor 1:14; 1Thes 5:2; 2Pet 3:10.

Some of the events occurred at Pentecost. Some of the events of the Day of the Lord have yet to occur.

DID WANT TO POINT OUT A SERIOUS ERROR IN YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE PASSAGE.

Here is the fundamental flaw, THERE IS NO MENTION OF RESURRECTION HERE!!! IN FACT, THEIR ACTIVITY PRECLUDES SUCH A READING INTO THE TEXT – “grinding together” and “in the field”. How do you get resurrection out of this?

If this is resurrection, what is meant by not going back into the house to get his stuff?

Your ludicrous interpretation of this passage is totally without foundation.

 

Which of those four most nearly represent
your post-tribulation theory?

If none is even close, you are welcome to
define your own timeline.

 

Ed, et al,

I checked out 9, yes, 9 commentaries today and ALL nine verified that the Second Coming in Luke 17 would be to separate the just from the unjust and that Jesus reason for using Lot and Noah was because it shows two events of salvation and punishment taking place ON THE SAME DAY!!

 

Trailblazer:

I checked 9 Bibles and did not find
any that said
(item copied from Trailblazer

Luke 17..."AS it was in the days of Noah, SO will it be “IN”the DAY(S) of the Son of Man.”

Here is one close:

Trailblazer:
Luke 17..."AS it was in the days of Noah,
SO will it be “IN”the DAY(S) of the Son of Man.”

Luke 17:26 (RSV):
As it was in the days of Noah,
so will it be in the days of the Son of man.

These look similar, but somebody has put
parens around the "s" in "DAYS"

[ January 17, 2005, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

Nit-picking Ed!

Was just to emphasize the plurality. It didn't change a thing!

 

Unfortunately you have let this nit
i picked come between you and your brother.

see:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2708.html

15th post

 

I respectfully disagre.
Jesus locks up Satan after Jesus defeats
Satan at the second coming.
The Bible is very clear on this.
Most posties also believe what i said.

 

Your verses say to me that Jesus Comes back to defeat the
antichrist (see rev19) then has Satan bound.
The disposition of the resurrected are then discussed,
but they were resurreced when Jesus came, not after
Satan was bound.

As usual, we are both reading the same scripture and getting
different things out of it.

YOu appear to me to be reading a scriputre like this:

Rev 20:5 (distorted version):

But the rest of the dead lived not again until
the thousand years were finished.
This [is] the first and only resurrection.

What the scripture says is:
Rev 20:5 (KJV1769):

But the rest of the dead lived not again until
the thousand years were finished.
This [is] the first resurrection.

Verse 4 even speaks of two groups:
1. those who rule on thrones, resurrected before the Tribualtion
2. those beheaded, resurrected after the Tribulation

There is NOTHING about "first" that
implies "one and only one".

Oops, sorry, i post in so many topics
that i forget this topic is supposed to
show that the Post-tribualtion doctrine
is about and i explaine pretrib.

 

Ed,

There will only be ONE resurrection both for the just and the unjust, and it will happen on the same day.

Sodom and Gomorrah was our mini-picture of this of which the saved and the unsaved were dealt with on the SAME DAY!!!!

Christ taught us what doctrine to hold concering his return. Pre-Mil Rapture is unscriptural when compared to Christ's own literal, contextual, hermeneutical and escatological words in Luke 17.

Now, count them! How many times does Christ prophesy that THE BOTH EVENTS WILL OCCUR ON THE SAME DAY???

1 time (verse 27)
1 time (verse 29)
+ 1 time (verse 30)

 

Hi Church Mouse;
I have read only the first few post and I have a question. In;

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In this verse we meet the Lord in the Air. If this happens at the end of tribulation doesn't it seem strange to meet the Lord in the air when the tribulation is already over with? Besides what I see signaling the end of tribulation is new Jerusalem coming down from Heaven. If we are to live in New Jerusalem for a thousand years what do you feel would be the purpose of meeting Him in the air?.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

P.S.

You won't be living in Jerusalem for 1,000 years! Shhhhh! It's SYMBOLICAL! Not LITERAL!!!

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

The resurrection of the just and the unjust happen on the same day....Luke 17! That is when the believers "meet the Lord in the air to live for eternity. So, there won't be any earthly kingdom either....."My Kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD..."John 18:36



"

 

Trailblazer: "Pre-Mil Rapture is unscriptural when compared
to Christ's own literal, contextual, hermeneutical
and escatological words in Luke 17."

Pretribulation Rapture/resurrection is what the Scriputre
says in Christ's own literal, contextual, hermeneutical
and escatological words in Luke 17.

Come to think of it, we have been discussing the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection and
the pre-millinnial Return of Jesus.


Trailblazer: "Now, count them! How many times does Christ prophesy that THE BOTH EVENTS WILL OCCUR ON THE SAME DAY??? "

How many times do you want me to note the following?
YOU WON THE ARUGMENT
I believe like you do

Where we disagree is what "day" means.
You have yet to look in your dictionary and tell
me what "day" can mean. The most scripturally
useful definitions of "day" in my dictionary are:

day5 - a time of flourishing, power, glory, success, etc.
day6 - the struggle or contest occurring on a certain day
day8 - an unspecified past or future day

I like another dictionary that says something like:

day12 - the appropriate time

That is what "day" means in prophetic portions of scripture.

 

Youse guys keep tricking me
I'm talking off topic. Check some
other topic, pretrib is much better.

 

How about Matt. 24:29-31?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!