Post-tribulation doctrine

Hi Church Mouse;
I can't say I agree with your interpretation here but then I have to remember that if Prophecy was something I could be sure would be literal. Then there would be no question.
The book of Revelation speakes of all kinds of strange things and for a long time I figured it had to be allegorcial. Especially Rev. 9.

First let me tell you that I'm Pre trib. I know there are scriptures that seem to be against this I've read them, but I'm open to anything new that I haven't seen or recognized yet as truth.
However I admit I remain pretrib because it is what I hope for.
Rev 9 speaks of locust that comes up out of the pit. This chapter is one reason I felt that this was allegorcial. I couldn't imagine a creature like these locust. That was before I read some about this gene splicing and and DNA manipulation. Scientist these days are literally creating new ("never before heard of") species of insects. Which is when I realized the description of these creatures is now very possible. They may all ready exist.

The reason that I mentioned that we meet Christ in the Air is because if this is so then it could also mean that the resrrection is a seperate event There are more than one resurrection. Two have already happened Lazzrus was resurrected and Christ was as well but His resurrection was such a powerful one that even some of the prophets were raised with Him however the prophets did die again.

Christ said to:
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

These verses certainly suggest that it is possible to escape these things that are coming. The last of which spefically states that the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then those who are left alive will be raptured or caught up to be with the Lord.

I realize that Post triber's go by;
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And on the surface it seems to give good support because it refers to the last trump but do we know exactly when the last trump will blast. I don't believe we do.

I don't believe the tribulation can begin until the restrainer is removed at least not until the last half;
2Th 2:6 and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,
2Th 2:7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder --till he may be out of the way,
2Th 2:8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,
The one who is holding back the Lawless one is evident to me as the Holy Spirit. God is the only one with enough power. If the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth then all the Christians will have to go with Him, because we are promised Him as comforter. This brings me back to why I hope that we will be raptured before the trib. I cannot bear the thought of being with out Him. Being with out Him would be Hell on earth for me. Can the Holy Spirit desert us?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

How about Matt. 24:29-31?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen! </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, you see what i meant.
That scripture is clearly pretribulation
rapture/resurrection teaching straight
from Jesus, the Christ.

Because this is the "Post-tribualtion
doctrine", recommend somebody show how
that is a Post-tribualtion doctrine.

 

Ed,

Oh really?

Does Christ saying 'before'?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------
That Scripture is clearly pretribulation rapture/resurrection
teaching straight from Jesus, the Christ.
---------------------------------------------------------------

DeafPosttrib: "Oh really? "

Yes, "oh really"! Matthew 24:31-44 is Christ's answer to
the disciples question: "What is the sign ... of the
end of the age (aeon)

DeafPosttrib: "Does Christ saying 'before'?"

Directly no, indirectly yes.
The question is answered after the one about the Second
Coming of Jesus because the question was asked after
the other.

Have you ever read the "holy scripture" written by
the founder of the Latter Day Saints (LDS) that explaines
what Jesus said? Joseph Smith Jr.says something like:
When Jesus Comes again will be the end of the world -
strange post-trib/a-mill doctrine right from the pen of
our false prophet Mormon starter.

 

Postrib/amill was already there LONG, long time ago before Joseph Smith invented his own religion.

Early Church believed only one future coming at the end of the world. None of them teaching split coming in the first of Eighteen Centuries. Till John Darby developed split coming doctrine in 19th Century. Then, many Christians adopted new teaching of split coming in the late of 19th Century.

Bible does not teaching split coming. It teaches only one future coming of Christ on the last day (John 6:39,40,44,& 54).

Also, you always keep on breaking Matt. 24:31 from the context of Matt. 24:29-31 speak of his coming shall be after the tribulation. Why cannot you accept the clearing teach from Jesus, the Christ, that he says, He shall be come back after tribulation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DPT,

I have a question for you. Are we talking to "hardened hearts" with "hearts of stone" here?

I must say that it is very discouraging when scripture can be laid out in front of them, of which even an unsaved 8 year old can at least follow black and white words to form a simple correct conclusion based on nothing more than the words in front of him. And yet, ones who claim to be Christians can't seem to get scriptural truth.

 

RJ! …..
Thought I’d finish up that last round-robin episode!I believe you started with not liking the (s) in days.

Tb replied,….”There was nothing devious about the parenthesis Rj. Had put it there in my own Bible to emphasize the fact that Jesus was talking about 2 things in Luke 17. One concerned the conditions of the eras of the flood and the end of the world. The second concerned the fact that the resurrection of the just and the unjust and the end of the world, as we know it, will be a one-time event. The plural or the singular pictures both. Now, I believe this was your critique of my post stating that Luke 17 definitely states that ON THAT DAY that the Son of Man returns, salvation, resurrection and judgment is being referred to in this text. It is your opinion that it is not, you said. You claim that since those “exact” words were not used, Jesus couldn’t have been intending to convey all those ideas here at all.”

First though, let’s see what Jesus’ main idea here is.

JESUS'WARNINGS;
1) He is using certain historical events of the past to warn of future events that will be done in the same manner.
2) He is warning about conditions back then being the same as it will be near the end in the future.
After laying that out as a foundation, Jesus proceeds to warn us about the swiftness of the future events.
1) And just as past event were swift and on the same day, so will it be swift and on the same day in the future.
2) He “alludes” to ones who looses their life and those who preserve their life and then goes on to show separation that occurs “on that day.” That whole context is talking about resurrection in referring to “separating, taking and leaving.”

It can mean nothing else!

Secondly, Luke, and only Luke spells it out in chapter 17 this way. None of the other gospels do. Matthew 24 only uses Noah, not Lot and it is about watchfulness and the destruction of Jerusalem. Obviously it’s for a reason that Luke puts a reference to Christ’s Second Advent both in 17 and 21. But in Luke 21, Jesus is talking about the “signs preceding the time of redemption; “And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” So, Luke 21 is similar but different, as it seems to be for the purpose of reporting another aspect of it. So, having said that, let’s move on with your critique;

Rj says….”In any case, let’s look at the passage starting with v. 24”

Rj says….“The second coming will be a “global event” from one part under heaven to the other part under heaven.”
Tb…“So far, we both agree on verse 24.”

Rj….”Jesus must die first.”
Tb replies….”Still with you on 25.”

Rj….”Life was going on as usual when the flood came. It will be going on as usual when Christ returns in judgment upon unbelievers.”
Tb replied….”I think I’m beginning to sense dodging a bit, though. It’s that you only acknowledge to ½ of the picture here. “Salvation of the believers” AND “judgment upon unbelievers” are both in the example Jesus gave of the flood. What about the salvation of Noah? You must answer the question directly. Was life going on as usual until the same day Noah entered into the ark, after which the Lord saved the godly ones by shutting them in Himself and destroyed the ungodly ones and does it all on the same day?”

Rj….”Same idea as with Noah, life as normal, then comes judgment.”
Tb adds….”Yep, that feeling of dodging is getting stronger!
- You are definitely avoiding the fact that; although verse 28 is referring to what the “general conditions of the period were”, verse 29 is referring to the fact that it was “on the same day” God saved righteous Lot that He also destroyed the wicked. (cf. Ge 19:29 “So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in which Lot dwelt.)
- Again, you see only the “judgment of the wicked” but not the salvation of the saints?
- You must answer the question directly. Does God save the just and destroy the unjust at the same time and on the same day or not in the example of Sodom and Gomorrah? Now you have a dilemma. If you say “yes”, then in the very next verse (30), God says that the next time the Son of Man is revealed He will be doing “in the same manner” as he did with Lot.

Jesus had given His two historic examples of the past for us to refer back to and now proceeds to use those as his foundation for what follows in the future events at the end of the world to build upon beginning with verse 30 as His turning point.”

Rj….”Jesus will come on a set day. His coming will be in one day.”
Tb replied….”Oookay…but to make sure on this; it is a single 24 hour period when you say “ON a set day, right? You are not avoiding the implications of the term “even thus shall it be” as meaning “in the same way” or “in the same manner,” are you, now? Jesus is here in verse 30 saying “I’m going to do it the same way at my Second Coming.” Do you agree or not agree? Because, “yes” means acceptance and the other means denial.”

Rj says….”Lots wife looked back to the city with longing and was judged. If they are to escape judgment on that day, they must not turn back to the city.”
Tb added….”- About ½ of the versions have “On that day” but it is His Second Coming that…
- “Lot’s wife looked back with longing because it was the life that she was leaving that she seemed to long for. Therefore, Jesus was telling us we are not to look upon our old lifestyles of eat, drink and be merry as having merit to it in any way because judgment will be swift and there will be no time for repentance.”

Rj said…”Covered this on another thread, but when judgment comes, you do not want to be taken. You want to be left. After the flood, everyone else was dead. Noah and his family was left. After the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his daughters were left.”
Tb replied…”Nooo, nooo! You seem to have “being taken” and “left behind” backwards. When you say; “when judgment comes, you do not want to be taken.” But that is not what the picture of the flood says if you go back and look in Genesis 7. Judgment came “first” to the ungodly that were “left behind” for destruction and it was the godly that the Lord shut in the ark. The Lord then “took them to safety” on the same day and later placed them on the “renewed earth.” - Ge 8:15f (Just as we will be placed in the New Jerusalem on the last day)”

Now, you also say the same about Lot and the judgments upon the ungodly in Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot was not left behind. “So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow,….” Ge 19:29

However, MOST OBVIOUS, is the complete avoidance of the fact that there is “separation of the just and the unjust” going on here in verses 34-36. Just as “in that night” there was “separation – salvation – and punishment ” on the very same day concerning the examples of Noah and Lot above. Let’s get this clear; anytime God draws a picture of separation, salvation for the just and punishment of the wicked He is talking about a one day/one time event on judgment day – the last day!”

Tb….”So, as the first section talks about the conditions of the “days” previous to the end times; this second section talks about what is going to happen within a specific 24 hour day and the verses in Matthew parallel and support that principle irrefutably.”

”Rj….”After the judgement that accompanies His second coming, the vultures will eat the flesh of those judged.
Tb added….”Ah, RJ! So, you think the resurrection and the final judgment has happened and that’s what’s left? Good boy! You’re getting it now!

Rj said….”NONE OF THIS IN ANY WAY DISCOUNTS OR DISCREDITS PREMILLENNIALISM!!!
Tb replied...”I THINK IT DDDDDDDOOOOO !!!!!!!!!”

Rj….”I ask, does 3 singular uses of “day”, minus 2 plural uses of “days”, leaving us with only 1 net use of day still have the same impact? Pardon my silliness for a moment. I have lowered my hermeneutical practices to a substandard level for a moment to make a point.”

Tb….”You asked? I say!….Uhhh huh, I knew it would happen some day! Trying to keep dispensational, pre-millinium, post-millinium, a-millinium, and preterism straight would send any reasonable man to tippin’ the communion wine!”

Rj….“The fact that Jesus will return on one set day, to which I readily assent, in no way indicates that all the events of the “day of the Lord” will occur on one day! Just check out every instance of “day of the Lord” to realize the folly of your contention from Luke 17. Here are the 27 occurrences of the phrase in the AV – Isa 2:12; 13:6, 9; Jer 46:10; Ezek 13:5; 30:3; Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14; Amos 5:18, 20; Obad 1:15; Zeph 1:7, 8, 14, 18; 2:2, 3; Zech 14:1; Mal 4:5; Acts 2:20; 1Cor 5:5; 2Cor 1:14; 1Thes 5:2; 2Pet 3:10.”

(To be continued…..)

 

(continued from above)

Tb says….”That whole “day of the Lord” thing was just a strawman argument set up for the purpose of shooting it down. The answer is in verses 24 -25.

Tb says….”It’s simple, different writers used similar terms in various ways while still conveying the same thought. Would you like to say that The Son of Man and the Son of God are not the same person? Would you really like to say that the Last Day is not Judgment Day? Would you also like to say that Eternal Life is not Everlasting Life? Would you like to say that Raise Up is not Resurrection? Need I say more???? Therefore, just in case you haven’t gotten the idea yet, please read the following with an ear to hear….

There is only ONE resurrection of all mankind
“Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” (Jn 11:24)

Separation to occur Judgment Day
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will SEPARATE them one from another as a shepherd SEPARATES the sheep from the goats….” (Mt 25:31-32)

“So shall it be at the end of the world; the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.” (Mt 24:40)

Resurrection and separation of both the just and the unjust at the same time they hear the voice of the Son of God.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live…Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:25-29, Jn 5:28-29)

Resurrection of unto eternal life for the believers to be on the “last day”
“…the hour is coming, when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life…” (Jn 5:28)

“…and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:38-40)

“…he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Jn 6:54)

Judgment and eternal punishment for the unbelievers on the last day at Jesus’ coming in flaming fire.
“…when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day…” ( 2 Thess 1:7-10)

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, …then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire…and they will go away into eternal punishment,…” (Mt 25:31-46)

“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” (2 Pe 3:7)[/I[

Judgment for all men is on a fixed day
“…but now he commands all men everywhere to repent because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world…” (Acts 17:30-31)

“He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.” (Jn 12:48

On the day of the Lord the earth burns, the new heavens and new earth and the Day of Eternity arrives for all believers.
“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” (2 Pe 3:7)

“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth…To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen!!!” (2 Peter3:10-18)

Rj says…”DID WANT TO POINT OUT A SERIOUS ERROR IN YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE [following] PASSAGE.”

In closing your critique, you concluded with these remarks but I think I have proven my original position quite satisfactorily and that your finale is what is without merit.

Rj says….”Here is the fundamental flaw, THERE IS NO MENTION OF RESURRECTION HERE!!! IN FACT, THEIR ACTIVITY PRECLUDES SUCH A READING INTO THE TEXT – “grinding together” and “in the field”.
Rj’s question…. “How do you get resurrection out of this?
Tb’s answer….”Ya can’t separate the just from the unjust without a resurrection! It’s implied all the way through it!

Rj’s question….“If this is resurrection, what is meant by not going back into the house to get his stuff?”
Tb’s answer ….”Uh, “I will come swiftly,” ya think?”

Rj says….”Your ludicrous interpretation of this passage is totally without foundation.”
Tb says…”Now, did I see on another thread something about you being a member of the “mensa” society? – or was that “menses?”

 

Christ taught us what doctrine to hold concering his return. Pre-Mil Rapture is unscriptural when compared to Christ's own literal, contextual, hermeneutical and escatological words in Luke 17.