Power to choose

[Van]

The fallen abide in Adam, the realm of darkness. Does scripture say some of those in Adam cannot seek God some of the time? Nope. Matthew 23:13 teaches of fallen men actually entering heaven without being compelled, because they were blocked. Thus the assertion that fallen men cannot seek God or trust fully in Christ is mistaken and unbiblical.

John 3 teaches that everyone believing into Christ will not perish but have eternal life. Thus the capacity to choose to seek God and trust fully in Christ is scriptural.

John 6, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Thus yet again, the capacity of some to hear and trust in Christ is taught in scripture.

Sequence matters, the born anew believer is a new creation. But the transformation occurs when a person is set apart (sanctified) in Christ and not before. We are chosen through faith in the truth, therefore we are believers before we are chosen. Our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand (Romans 5:1-2). Thus our election is conditional, based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5/24.

Some men have so hardened their hearts by the practice of sin, they cannot understand the gospel, just as Jesus teaches in John 8:42-47. But other fallen men, those that believe God and are open to the coming Messiah, who are "of God" do hear and respond.

Bottom line, some fallen people do seek God and trust in Christ, for they were saved by grace "through faith." Thus their faith is credited as righteousness before they are set apart in Christ and born anew as a new creation.

 

[agedman]

The fallen abide in Adam, the realm of darkness. Does scripture say some of those in Adam cannot seek God some of the time? Nope. Matthew 23:13 teaches of fallen men actually entering heaven without being compelled, because they were blocked. Thus the assertion that fallen men cannot seek God or trust fully in Christ is mistaken and unbiblical.

No it is not unbiblical. You are using Matthew 23 in an attempt to show fallen seeking God. No, Matthew 23 shows fallen attempting to prevent those who are God's from coming to him. A rather futile effort on the part of the heathen. But that is part of the despising that those who are repulsed by believers have as part of their darkened character.

John 3 teaches that everyone believing into Christ will not perish but have eternal life. Thus the capacity to choose to seek God and trust fully in Christ is scriptural.

What John three does NOT teach is that the Father gives everyone such capacity. In fact, beginning with the opening chapter of John (1) John is very careful to state that the power (capacity) to "become the sons of God" rests solely upon the Father. That is completely irrefutable or John 1 becomes a lie.

John 6, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Thus yet again, the capacity of some to hear and trust in Christ is taught in scripture.

Yes - the capacity of "some to hear." However, the capacity is not given to everyone. Again, WHO is/was given the capacity? John points to that capacity/ability in the opening chapter (John 1).

Sequence matters, the born anew believer is a new creation. But the transformation occurs when a person is set apart (sanctified) in Christ and not before. We are chosen through faith in the truth, therefore we are believers before we are chosen. Our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand (Romans 5:1-2). Thus our election is conditional, based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5/24.

Your sequence is wrong, but this isn't a thread on the process God goes through to bring a person to acknowledge His claim upon them. Therefore, I won't go into the birthing process. It is for another thread.

Some men have so hardened their hearts by the practice of sin, they cannot understand the gospel, just as Jesus teaches in John 8:42-47. But other fallen men, those that believe God and are open to the coming Messiah, who are "of God" do hear and respond.

Some catch at the fringes trusting that they have the whole. Again, look back at John 1. Why are those fallen able to respond to the message while others do not? It is not what they do, but what they did not do. To them God gives the ability/ capacity. The hearing and responding are responses from the ability to do so by God. The hearing and responding are not in themselves innate ability given to all. That is part of the "power" that John 1 states.

Bottom line, some fallen people do seek God and trust in Christ, for they were saved by grace "through faith." Thus their faith is credited as righteousness before they are set apart in Christ and born anew as a new creation.

Bottom line???

You are again attempting to place some sequence that dictates a process. Your sequence is wrong, and this thread's intent is not to hash out that matter.

The thread is on the freedom of will / choice and the ability to make a choice outside of the realm in which the unbeliever resides.

Consistently, John makes the case that such ability is not existent in the heathen.

Bottom line.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The fallen abide in Adam, the realm of darkness. Does scripture say some of those in Adam cannot seek God some of the time? Nope.

Actually, Yep. 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God' (John 3:3). 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.......nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Cor. 2:14). 'In Adam, all die.' (1 Cor. 15:22). Matt. 23:13 will not bear the weight you are putting on it as I have already explained.

John 3 teaches that everyone believing into Christ will not perish but have eternal life. Thus the capacity to choose to seek God and trust fully in Christ is scriptural.

This is a non sequitur. The second sentence does not follow from the first.

John 6, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Thus yet again, the capacity of some to hear and trust in Christ is taught in scripture.

Another non sequitur. The ones who hear and learn are the ones whom the Holy Spirit has regenerated (cf. John 3:6).

The rest has already been refuted several times. If you really want, I will do so again, but right now, it's supper time.

 

[Revmitchell]

Actually, Yep. 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God' (John 3:3). 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.......nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Cor. 2:14). 'In Adam, all die.' (1 Cor. 15:22). Matt. 23:13 will not bear the weight you are putting on it as I have already explained.

Those verses do not say the lost cannot seek God. In fact Paul made it quite clear they can.


Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 

[Rippon]

Those verses do not say the lost cannot seek God. In fact Paul made it quite clear they can.


Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Those verses do not support your claim. God has revealed Himself to everyone. Everyone has no excuse. However, those passages say nothing about one's capacity to seek God.

 

[Rippon]

Those verses do not say the lost cannot seek God. In fact Paul made it quite clear they can.


Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

As I said in post 45 --those passages do not support your claim. As a matter of fact Paul even quotes Psalms in chapter of Romans a bit later:"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Those verses do not say the lost cannot seek God. In fact Paul made it quite clear they can.


Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

I think the verses I quoted do say the lost cannot seek God. If you disagree, you need to show me why. Also as Rippon said, the verses you have quoted do not prove human ability- quite the reverse, I rather think. Here are men refusing the gracious revelation of God.

Perhaps I may quote Spurgeon here (MTP, 1874, 493. "For whom did Christ die?":

Your condition is not only your calamity, but your fault. Your "cannot" means "will not;" your inability is not physical but moral; not that of the blind who cannot see for want of eyes, but of the willingly ignorant who refuse to look.

This is corroborated by John 3:19 and 5:40.

BTW, the KJV rendering of 'hold' in Rom 1:18 is not the best. 'Hold down' or 'suppress' (NKJV) is better (cf. Rom. 7:6).

 

[Revmitchell]

I think the verses I quoted do say the lost cannot seek God. If you disagree, you need to show me why. Also as Rippon said, the verses you have quoted do not prove human ability- quite the reverse, I rather think. Here are men refusing the gracious revelation of God.

Perhaps I may quote Spurgeon here (MTP, 1874, 493. "For whom did Christ die?":

This is corroborated by John 3:19 and 5:40.

BTW, the KJV rendering of 'hold' in Rom 1:18 is not the best. 'Hold down' or 'suppress' (NKJV) is better (cf. Rom. 7:6).

Verse 19 says God showed it to them (the lost)
Verse 21 says they knew God.

So the seeking occurs after it becomes obvious God is real but before they are saved. We cannot avoid nor get around the fact that God has shown Himself to the lost and they still reject Him. It is on that basis that God holds them accountable according to verse 18.

Would man seek God without His general revelation, no they would not on this we agree. Does man seek God after his realization of God's general revelation? On this we disagree and I say yes. At this time they have an understanding of God and the special revelation brings just who God is to the lost.

 

[Rippon]

Verse 19 says God showed it to them (the lost)
Verse 21 says they knew God.

So the seeking occurs after it becomes obvious God is real but before they are saved.

That is not found anywhere in the text.

Look at verse 21:
"For although they knew God, they neither glorfied him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Ain't no seekin' going on!

 

[Revmitchell]

That is not found anywhere in the text.

Look at verse 21:
"For although they knew God, they neither glorfied him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Ain't no seekin' going on!

They knew God ......I didn't say it God did.

 

[Rippon]

They knew God ......I didn't say it God did.

Yes, they knew God. Not savingly, but they knew God and His power.

But it says nothing about them seeking Him. You have not found that data in the text.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, they knew God. Not savingly, but they knew God and His power.

But it says nothing about them seeking Him. You have not found that data in the text.

What does that means "not savingly" that is not in the text. I am sorry but I understand knowing Him as the ability to choose Him or reject Him. There is no other option.

 

[Rippon]

What does that means "not savingly" that is not in the text. I am sorry but I understand knowing Him as the ability to choose Him or reject Him. There is no other option.

In Romans 1:21 it says "they knew God." Does this knowing God mean they were savingly united with him --or lost? They were lost of course. Look again at 21b:"their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."

You seek to find people seeking God in the text but it just is not there. No amount of dancing around it will make it magically appear.

 

[Revmitchell]

No amount of dancing around it will make it magically appear.

Ok this is the kind of unnecessary language on this board that inhibits real discussions. I will leave you to it.

 

[Rippon]

Ok this is the kind of unnecessary language on this board that inhibits real discussions. I will leave you to it.

Oh, I hurt your feelings. I got real nasty and said you were dancing around the fact that you can't support your claims from the text. So instead of conceding that fact, you flee the scene. Typical.

 

[Revmitchell]

Oh, I hurt your feelings. I got real nasty and said you were dancing around the fact that you can't support your claims from the text. So instead of conceding that fact, you flee the scene. Typical.

And this is why people do not like discussions with Calvinists.

 

[percho]

I believe Romans 1:20 says that they are without excuse for the creation itself shows there to be a Godhead yet even they knowing this, that is knowing that there is God, they in there imaginations, worshiped the creation rather than the creator.

They did not seek the creator God of which they knew existed, because Adam had eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They wanted to have free will and decide for themselves. And guess what, God let them.


Now God chooses, calls and by the Spirit of Truth removes one from unbelief unto belief.

 

[Rippon]

'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.......nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Cor. 2:14).

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. (NIV)

But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually. (HCSB)

The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God,for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (NET Bible)

There is no choice of will evidenced here whatsoever. There is no seeking of God in this text --not one whit of it.

In 1 Cor. 1:18 it says "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (NIV)

The message of the cross is foolishness to this person. The things of the Spirit of God are foolishness to this individual. This person is lost --unsaved --an unbeliever (in case you like redundancies). The lost do not have libertarian free will. The lost do not seek God. They cannot and will not be able to do so unless the Lord steps in --Blessed interference!

 

[SovereignGrace]

They knew God ......I didn't say it God did.

I knew God existed but did not know Him in an intimate relationship, and was not seeking for Him, but yea, rather running the other way. He was not even the low man on my totem pole. He sought me out.

 

[Reformed]

We always come at this discussion from the angle of our own presupposition. The Synergist will say that the sinner can genuinely seek God, and has the ability to accept or reject Him. It is a bit more nuanced for the Monergist. The Monergist will say that the non-elect sinner cannot truly seek God, although elect individuals seek God in response to, and only because of, the effectual call (i.e. the call of God that always results in salvation).