Practical Antinomians?

[thatbrian]

And why wouldn't we want to do so if we are led of the Spirit?

That's the Apostle Paul's argument.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Try to live by (under) God's Law and you will be crushed into dust. Live by (under) His grace and you will be finally free to obey.

Yes, but... "I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:22-24)

Christ fulfilled the Covenant of Works on your behalf. "In Him" we are as righteous as if we had. On our own, we are incapable of law-obedience.

I agree. You're refuting an argument I have not made. There was no mention of trying to keep the law. May I suggest you go back and carefully read the OP?

If biblical history has not made that abundantly clear to you, then Christ's Sermon on the Mount should have.

I'm not exactly clear on what you believe I am unsure of...

 

[BobRyan]

Sheep need not be told to stay out of the hog wallow They stay in the green pastures and drink only pure water..

Sheep are guided constantly or else chaos.

 

[BobRyan]

Antinomianism is seen through one's attitude towards God's commands, not whether they are capable of keeping those commands.

As has already been said, Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the Law for us. That does not mean we are free to sin willfully. Our attitude towards John 14:15 reveals much about our profession. We will never keep God's commands perfectly this side of glory. To suggest otherwise is to mix works with grace - .

1 John 2:1 does not argue for unstoppable rebellion. Neither does Romans 6 or Romans 8:4-10.

There is as you point out a "false gospel" about unstoppable rebellion among the saints as "God's plan for them". That was never God's plan for the saints.

Romans 8 says that it is only the lost that have this said about them "they do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed can they"

Your argument above is of the form "you must not sin this sin... or that sin... but you also must sin some sin"

Let's take an example ... "taking God's name in vain" -- your argument is that if someone becomes a Christian and stops taking God's name in vain... well then that is "works".. but if they do it "occasionally" then we are back to the Gospel?? What in the world is the thinking there?

Using that argument couldn't these people all claim that the sin they are being accused of is simply the sin "they need to commit" to keep under the Gospel and not have works based religion?


Jesus said this about those who merely "say" the right words while not "doing" as God commands.
Matthew 7 "Not everyone who SAYS 'Lord Lord' will ENTER the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of the Father"

Jesus said this - when explaining "In vain do they worship Me"
Mark 7
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

 

[BobRyan]

It is a good reminder for us to understand the true nature of God's grace and how it frees us from the Law. It is also a good reminder to live our lives in a manner pleasing to the Lord.

New Covenant "Law written on heart and mind" -- Jeremiah 31:31-33
"what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"saints keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"this IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

Under the Gospel we have freedom from "condemnation of the law" as Paul points out in Rom 3:19-21
By definition "sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT

Christ teaches "By their fruits you shall know them" Matthew 7 -- and the fruit that is "rebellion" is also an indicator.

Jesus does not say to the woman caught in adultery "go and sin a little more ... just not a lot more"

The Bible never defends sinning... not even for the saints. God's Word always condemns sin.

 

[HankD]

Sheep are guided constantly or else chaos.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

 

[Reformed]

Yes, but... "I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:22-24)

We can delight in the law of God while at the same time being unable to keep it while still in this earthly body. How can we do this? Because the law is holy and it is holy because it proceeds from God. We seek to be obedient to Christ because we are His servants. We should also seek to be obedient out of love and a grateful heart. We do not seek to be obedient in order to merit God's favor. We already have God's favor because of Christ. When we obey God it is as though we are saying, "I am Yours and live my life in such a way as to bring you glory."

 

[BobRyan]

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Sheep the hear and obey -- and follow... are following the Word of God instead of declaring that it does not apply to them. I think we all see that point.

 

[BobRyan]

We can delight in the law of God while at the same time being unable to keep it while still in this earthly body.

There is indeed a group that the Bible says "are unable" to keep God's Law.

Rom 8:4-9
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him

 

[HankD]

Sheep the hear and obey -- and follow... are following the Word of God instead of declaring that it does not apply to them. I think we all see that point.

We do, some think they do and don't but depend on self in an attempt to please the shepherd.

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

We can delight in the law of God while at the same time being unable to keep it while still in this earthly body.

I agree. I believe that is exactly what Paul is teaching in Romans 7. My thought, or rather introspective question is, do I (we) entertain some transgressions of the law (the Word of God - Psalms 19:7 - not the Mosaic Law) and allow them to remain with the assumption that God's grace is sufficient to cleanse us. That would make us "practicing antinomians" as I understand antinomianism philosophy.

 

[HankD]

Sin is repulsive to the children of God.

Sheep don't want a hog wallow to play in but green pastures and pure water.

Sheep can and sometimes do fall into the mud.

They have no method to cleanse themselves only the shepherd can do that

 

[James Donovan]

Every believer should relate with Pastor Bob on this, 'the bold sin' has always been a very real and ever present danger for all the saints, OT and NT:

13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; Let them not have dominion over me: Then shall I be upright, And I shall be clear from great transgression. Ps 19

13 For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another. Gal 5

This is probably the biggest problem I have with the Calvinist Lord Salvation theology, they don't acknowledge how normal and frequent these sins are in the everyday life of Christians. Their doctrine of 'Perseverance' (in lieu of 'Preservation') really means that if one has truly savingly sincerely genuinely believed they will grow to be above these 'intentional sins'. If they don't, they're 'antichrists'.

And why wouldn't we want to do so if we are led of the Spirit?

Agreeing with you.

We

 

[BobRyan]

Sheep the hear and obey -- and follow... are following the Word of God instead of declaring that it does not apply to them.

I think we all see that point.

We do, some think they do and don't but depend on self

Agreed -- sometimes they do that in the form of ignoring the Word almost entirely on some topics. Sometimes they do that by coming up with little catch-phrases and rituals that they can point to instead of "the Word".


Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Matthew 7 " Not everyone who SAYS 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of the Father... He hears these Words of Mine AND DOES them is like one who built is house on the ROCK"

Hebrews 4: "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
"this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Just as even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 ... agrees.

So then -- no "taking God's name in vain" for the saints.

 

[HankD]

Hebrews 4: "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"
.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Legalist don't understand either of these passages.

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The first covenant is of the form "obey and Live" -- Adam and Eve failed that one.

The New Covenant writes "the LAW of God on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33... perhaps you have heard of it.

Rom 3:19-20 -- the world STILL lost under that OLD Covenant. And the individual only saved if they accept the NEW Covenant that we see in the OLD Testament in Jeremiah 31:31-33 unchanged in the NT according to Hebrews 8:6-12

 

[HankD]

The first covenant is of the form "obey and Live" -- Adam and Eve failed that one.

The New Covenant writes "the LAW of God on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33... perhaps you have heard of it.

Rom 3:19-20 -- the world STILL lost under that OLD Covenant. And the individual only saved if they accept the NEW Covenant that we see in the OLD Testament in Jeremiah 31:31-33 unchanged in the NT according to Hebrews 8:6-12

You are confused

Acts 15
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
...
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

 

[Reformed]

I agree. I believe that is exactly what Paul is teaching in Romans 7. My thought, or rather introspective question is, do I (we) entertain some transgressions of the law (the Word of God - Psalms 19:7 - not the Mosaic Law) and allow them to remain with the assumption that God's grace is sufficient to cleanse us. That would make us "practicing antinomians" as I understand antinomianism philosophy.

Bob, do we entertain some transgressions of the law? Again, this depends on our attitude towards transgressions (i.e. sin). If we have created our own cache for certain sins, then yes, we are practicing antinomians. We may never be bold or honest enough to say that we sin with impunity, but our actions belay our words. This is a dangerous attitude to have because the Apostle wrote in 1 John 3:4-10: "4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

The key word here is "practice". The Greek word means to create something or to produce. This is the thought James was conveying:

James 1:15 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

The product of sin is death. This is why the practice of sin is so dangerous. It is not that someone can lose their salvation, but it may reveal the true spiritual condition of the heart. Of course, I am not indicting Christians who struggle with habitual sin. There are Christians who are alcoholics who may never know complete victory over their addiction until glory. I know some of these people and there is a brokenness over their sin. They do not sin with a cavalier attitude.

 

[thatbrian]

Yes, but... "I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:22-24)

Why the, "but"?

I'm not exactly clear on what you believe I am unsure of...

You can't keep, nor should your focus even be on, the Law, as if that were the way to gain righteousness.

 

[One Baptism]

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Legalist don't understand either of these passages.

I understand the text. It isn't talking about the Ten Commandments, but the 'old covenant', made between God and Israel in Exodus 19, with Moses as the mediator between them. The Ten Commandments are never, in all of scripture [KJB], called the 'old covenant'. It is a matter of 'ministration', or 'administration' [2 Corinthians 3 KJB], in how they were to be fulfilled [Romans 2:7, 8:4, 13:8; Galatians 2:6 [John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; James 4:12 KJB], carried out, lived, etc. The difference of location, outward stones, or the inward fleshy tables [notice this word please] of the heart/mind. The brain has two hemispheres, thus two tables.

Here is the 'old covenant':

Exodus 19:3 KJB - And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

Exodus 19:4 KJB - Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Exodus 19:5 KJB - Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exodus 19:6 KJB - And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Exodus 19:7 KJB - And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.

Exodus 19:8 KJB - And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Exodus 19:9 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.​

That was the 'old covenant' or agreement, which was the 'old covenant' about keeping God's 'my covenant' [2 things, not 1]. All of which took place 3 days before the Ten Commandments were spoken in grandeur and majesty by God, upon the top of the mount, surrounded by ten thousand times ten thousands of angels [Deuteronomy 33:2 KJB, etc]. This is witnessed to, in Hebrews, for the fault was not the Ten Commandments, God's perfect, holy, just, good and eternal Law [Romans 7:12 KJB. etc], but with the flesh [Romans 8:3 KJB], and the promises made by carnal peoples [who immediately failed, golden calf incident] in a mere external 'obedience' [which it wasn't really, they were still slaves mentally, and of the heart, though free physically]:

Hebrews 8:6 KJB - But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:7 KJB - For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:8 KJB - For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
​

Can you find fault with a single one of God's Ten Commandments? or any promises in them [as they are all promises of God Himself to man, if we would believe]?

The New Covenant is the writing, by God, even the Holy Spirit, of God's Law [the Ten Commandments] upon the internal mind/heart, as per Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-13; 10:16; Ezekiel 36:25-27; 2 Corinthians 3:3 KJB., etc.

God's Ten Commandments [an 'everlasting covenant', and even the 'new covenant' [though it existed before the 'old'] , as they are in Christ Jesus, 1 Chronicles 16:15-17; Isaiah 24:5; Jeremiah 32:40; Hebrews 13:20 KJB, etc], are called "his covenant', or 'my [the LORD's] covenant' in scripture, which is separate and distinct from the 'old covenant' as found made between God and the peoples. Here is what God says of 'his covenant':

Psalms 89:34 KJB - My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
​

'Old covenant' - the peoples said "... all ... we will do..."

New Covenant - God says, "I will ...", believe through faith, and from real faith comes obedience.