Practical Antinomians?

[Pastor_Bob]

You can't keep, nor should your focus even be on, the Law, as if that were the way to gain righteousness.

I’m not sure how you’re misreading my posts, my friend. I am I no way intimating that I believe keeping the Law is necessary for anything. I’m simply talking about the tendency to not immediately deal with sin that creeps into our lives. I’m simply relating to Paul’s testimony in Romans 7.

 

[One Baptism]

... I’m simply talking about the tendency to not immediately deal with sin that creeps into our lives. ...

It was this way from the very beginning, even in the life of Adam and Eve, who once sinned, did not draw nigh unto God, their Father, but ran, ashamed, and hid, hoping not to be found out, burying it in their hearts:

Job 31:33 KJB - If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:​

... but everlasting praise and thanksgiving be unto, God, that God readeth/searcheth the hearts, and reached out in such mercy [through His Son Christ Jesus], and went looking for that which was marred, that which was lost, that which was afraid, that which was condemned, that which was filthy, that which was naked, ...

As it was at the beginning, the wicked are still running, even though we have such a powerful pardon:

Genesis 3:8 KJB - And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Revelation 6:15 KJB - And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
​

We must not hide the sin in the heart, but bring it to the Light, Christ Jesus. Confess it [unto Christ Jesus] and forsake it [by the Holy Spirit]. Let it be nakedly exposed upon our cross, and let it die there. Ashamed of our sins, but never ashamed of the Everlasting Gospel as it is in Christ Jesus.

 

[HankD]

The law is impossible for us to keep.

There are 613 mitvouth of the law about 200 cannot be kept because there is no tabernacle or temple in Jerusalem nor Levitical priesthood necessary for the execution thereof.

Many people like to slice up the law into different part (moral, dietary, 10 commandments, etc...) but nowhere in the Torah is that allowed - you either keep it all or not at all.

 

[One Baptism]

The law is impossible for us to keep.

There are 613 mitvouth of the law about 200 cannot be kept because there is no tabernacle or temple in Jerusalem nor Levitical priesthood necessary for the execution thereof.

Outside of Christ, without His strength, yes -

John 15:5 KJB - I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​

With Christ Jesus, in His strength, He is able in us to bring us to the overcoming, even as He HImself overcame:

Philippians 4:13 KJB - I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Revelation 3:21 KJB - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
​

The pharisaical and talmudic so-called '613' is not found in scripture, is a man-made tradition/counting [and will vary depending on who one talks to], and thus may be safely ignored. The Bible never mentions such a thing, but does specifically mention the Greatest commandment, the second like unto it, and the Ten Commandments in numerous places.

As a PS. we do have "sacrifices" [broken and contrite heart, of praise, etc], we do have an Temple, a City, Heavenly, and we do have an Altar, etc:

Hebrews 13:10 KJB - We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.​

 

[HankD]

Outside of Christ, without His strength, yes -

John 15:5 KJB - I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​

With Christ Jesus, in His strength, He is able in us to bring us to the overcoming, even as He HImself overcame:

Philippians 4:13 KJB - I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Revelation 3:21 KJB - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
​

The pharisaical and talmudic so-called '613' is not found in scripture, is a man-made tradition/counting [and will vary depending on who one talks to], and thus may be safely ignored. The Bible never mentions such a thing, but does specifically mention the Greatest commandment, the second like unto it, and the Ten Commandments in numerous places.

As a PS. we do have "sacrifices" [broken and contrite heart, of praise, etc], we do have an Temple, a City, Heavenly, and we do have an Altar, etc:

Hebrews 13:10 KJB - We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.​

Wrong - here they are - which ones will you tell God you will not keep?

All 613 Commandments in the Old Testament Law of Moses

 

[Reformed]

The law is impossible for us to keep.

There are 613 mitvouth of the law about 200 cannot be kept because there is no tabernacle or temple in Jerusalem nor Levitical priesthood necessary for the execution thereof.

Many people like to slice up the law into different part (moral, dietary, 10 commandments, etc...) but nowhere in the Torah is that allowed - you either keep it all or not at all.

For the Christian, the part of the law we should be concerned about is God's moral law. The moral law of God predates the Mosaic Law, although it is codified in the Decalogue (the 10 commandments). The moral law is basically the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong. The Decalogue expands on this knowledge with more of a narrative explanation but it is still just basically right vs. wrong. God's moral law can be seen in Genesis 4 in the story of Cain and Abel. Both men knew what was right and what was wrong. In fact, God spoke to Cain about his sinful attitude. Cain did not need a written commandment that said, "Thou shalt not kill". He knew this intuitively.

God's moral law survives today. We are to do good, not evil. The other parts of the Mosaic Law - the ceremonial and the judicial - have been fulfilled in Christ. Keeping God's moral law does not earn us merit with God. As has been written in this thread already, we are incapable of perfect obedience in this life, but obedience is expected of us nonetheless. When we fail (sin), Christ has already atoned for our sin.

 

[HankD]

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[HankD]

For the Christian, the part of the law we should be concerned about is God's moral law. The moral law of God predates the Mosaic Law, although it is codified in the Decalogue (the 10 commandments). The moral law is basically the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong. The Decalogue expands on this knowledge with more of a narrative explanation but it is still just basically right vs. wrong. God's moral law can be seen in Genesis 4 in the story of Cain and Abel. Both men knew what was right and what was wrong. In fact, God spoke to Cain about his sinful attitude. Cain did not need a written commandment that said, "Thou shalt not kill". He knew this intuitively.

God's moral law survives today. We are to do good, not evil. The other parts of the Mosaic Law - the ceremonial and the judicial - have been fulfilled in Christ. Keeping God's moral law does not earn us merit with God. As has been written in this thread already, we are incapable of perfect obedience in this life, but obedience is expected of us nonetheless. When we fail (sin), Christ has already atoned for our sin.

We are either under the law or led of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[HankD]

Where is God's "moral law" found in scripture?

If one wishes to say it is encapsulated in the Torah then fine.

However break one break them all.

We have no HOPE in ANY law, moral, mosaic, US Constitution, etc... or God would have given it for a hope.

Jesus Christ is our only hope (we all know that or should).

 

[Reformed]

Where is God's "moral law" found in scripture?

God's moral law is the intuitive knowledge of good and evil. I gave you an example in Genesis 4. Both Cain and Able knew the right and wrong things to do. How did they know right from wrong absent written laws? Paul wrote in Romans 2:15 "in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them". The Gentiles during Paul's time did not have an intimate knowledge of the Mosaic Law, but they did know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. They possessed a morality that, while outside of Christ, is God-given to every person. The reason it is referred to as the moral law is that it is a universal truth that applies to all. There is no salvation found in keeping it because we cannot keep it due to abiding sin.

Does God's moral law apply to Christians? Think about it. Are we children of light or children of darkness? Consider the following:

Ephesians 5: 6-16 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. 14 For this reason it says, “Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you.” 15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil.

If we are to walk as children of light, we are to choose light instead of darkness; good instead of evil. As said previously, all people are born with the inherent knowledge of good and evil. Christians have a dynamic that unbelievers do not possess - the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, through the Word of God, leads us into all truth (John 16:13). We have just read in the above Ephesians passage that walking as children of light is imperative. Ergo, it is a requirement of the Christian life. Paul did not write, "I highly suggest you walk as children of light". He simply wrote, "walk as children of light".

I think the problem some have with the moral law of God is the thinking that it is mixing law and grace. It is not. At the risk of being redundant, the moral law of God is just knowing right from wrong. Knowing right from wrong (and the imperative to choose what is right) applies to all time. But unlike the Mosaic Law that required perfect obedience, our lapses in choosing right over wrong was atoned for by the Son of God.

P.S. Here is some extra reading if you are so inclined: 3 Reasons for God's Moral Law

 

[thatbrian]

I’m not sure how you’re misreading my posts, my friend. I am I no way intimating that I believe keeping the Law is necessary for anything. I’m simply talking about the tendency to not immediately deal with sin that creeps into our lives. I’m simply relating to Paul’s testimony in Romans 7.

What I am seeing in your posts is problem with your method for "dealing" with sin in the life of the believer.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

What I am seeing in your posts is problem with your method for "dealing" with sin in the life of the believer.

I did not offer a method of dealing with sin. If anything, it would be a lack thereof. The whole point of the thread is that, while we may say we believe one way, in practice we may be guilty of just the opposite.

 

[BobRyan]

HankD said: ↑
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

[QUOTE ]The first covenant is of the form "obey and Live" -- Adam and Eve failed that one.

The New Covenant writes "the LAW of God on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33... perhaps you have heard of it.

Rom 3:19-20 -- the world STILL lost under that OLD Covenant. And the individual only saved if they accept the NEW Covenant that we see in the OLD Testament in Jeremiah 31:31-33 unchanged in the NT according to Hebrews 8:6-12[/QUOTE]

No one Lost who is under the New Covenant and no one saved who is under the Old.. see 2Cor 3.

You are confused

Acts 15
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

You are confused.

Mark 7:6-13 Jesus affirms the Law of Moses.
Acts 16 Paul has Timothy circumcised
Acts

Basically in the book of Acts Paul claims to be a Messianic Jew

Paul claims to be a Jew even after becoming a Christian - and says this is also true of Peter

In Acts 21 - James is squarely in favor of Messianic Jews to the point of instructing Paul to participate in a ceremonial vow.

In Gal 2
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles

Acts 23:6
But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"

Acts 13
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.”

16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68604514, member: 235244"]Although Paul was certainly not under the condemnation of the Law as a born again New Covenant Christian - yet he also was not devoted to rebellion against the Law of God -

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.



Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;


Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening

================ and so for New Covenant Christians.

"I will write My LAW on their mind and heart" Jer 31:31-33 Heb 8:6-10
"if you Love Me KEEP My commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;


Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening


"The Old Covenant" is as Phil 3 states - "obey and live" and Adam failed under it. So also does Romans 3:19-21 say all mankind is condemned by it 'still'.

But when you read the New Covenant - Jer 31:31-33 you see that it is the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9.

The ceremonies ended according to Hebrews 10 -- at the cross. As even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" admits.

 

[HankD]

While I don't like the sounds of being obedient to a "moral law", I have no problem following the leading of the Holy Spirit.

When I wonder off His leading then I suppose I need some kind of "law" to lead me.

Poor substitute IMO.

 

[BobRyan]

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
James 4 argues against the idea of being a "judge of the Law"

11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?

 

[BobRyan]

While I don't like the sounds of being obedient to a "moral law", I have no problem following the leading of the Holy Spirit.
.

Turns out the Holy Spirit authored the Bible - 2 Peter 1:20-21 and that includes the Commandments of God such as "do not take God's name in vain".

That means it is the Holy Spirit saying

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

 

[loDebar]

It is the attitude toward sin.. Do you insult your spouse knowing that you are most likely to be forgiven?
Believers avoid sin(omission ,commission) because we do not want to disappoint Jesus. Not that we will be forgiven.
Any sin hurts that relationship.

 

[HankD]

Turns out the Holy Spirit authored the Bible - 2 Peter 1:20-21 and that includes the Commandments of God such as "do not take God's name in vain".

That means it is the Holy Spirit saying

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

We shouldn't need a commandment to tell us not to blaspheme Bob.

If you do you have a spiritual problem.

How about this Bob - do you say bad things about your Mom?

Do you need a commandment to tell you not to do it?

 

[loDebar]

I believe this is really legalism.

 

[BobRyan]

We shouldn't need a commandment to tell us not to blaspheme Bob.

Perhaps someone should inform God... edit the Bible?... say the Bible "is not for Christians"??

Eph 6
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.

What is the difference between the divorce rate inside the Christian Church in America and outside?

nill?

How about among "serious Christians"? well then there is a difference .. .but then "Serious Christians" probably "read the Bible" where we find all those commands to obey God.

Then Maybe God was right when He inspired James to write James 2 and James 4.

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

1 John 2:1 'these things I write to you that you sin not"
1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law"

Of course we do have a few people claiming they do not sin so they need no commandments of God - but that is pretty rare in general.