Practical Antinomians?

[loDebar]

What was the answer,? do you by your actions maintain or edify the status of you salvation?

 

[BobRyan]

What was the answer,? do you by your actions maintain or edify the status of you salvation?

What answer does Christ give in Matthew 18? Was He in error?
What answer does Paul give in 1Cor 6? Was He in error?

Does OSAS survive sola scriptura testing? OR is it merely "sola tradition"?

 

[loDebar]

you answer by not answering, Do you represent SDA or is this a personal position?

you are in error of 1 Cor 6 , and Matt 18 ,

neither has anything to do with eternal security of the believer,

Not a small error, but way off base , not even the same type of duscussion

 

[BobRyan]

I claim to be a New Covenant Christian.. do you?

Jeremiah 31
31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



============================================
Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.
Matthew 18
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”



Indeed -- Christ shows us the "fully forgiven" about whom it is said "I forgave you ALL" and yet due to subsequent actions of the "fully forgiven" -- they experience forgiveness revoked. until he should pay all that was due

loDebar said: ↑
so we loose our salvation?

In your POV is there such a thing as "Salvation where you pay your own debt of sin" -- having been "forgiven all" he then had to "repay all".. OR is Christ simply mistaken in your POV?

OSAS does not survive Matthew 18 nor Romans 11 nor Ezekiel 18 (nor even Matthew 6)

(I notice you are not answering the question "do you claim to be a New Covenant Christian")[/QUOTE]

loDebar said: ↑
Does one loose salvation if the moral law is not kept?

Rebellion is what kind fruit?

1 John 1 and 2 argue for repentance in view of rebellion - are you proposing stubborn rebellion?

loDebar said: ↑
You are trying to earn salvation

Why accuse me of that - simply because I claim Christ is not in error in Matthew 18??

Nor is He in error in Matthew 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"

Nor is it error to ask the question "rebellion is what kind of fruit"?

Nor is it error to make this comment ... 1 John 1 and 2 argue for repentance in view of rebellion - are you proposing stubborn rebellion?

Nor is it error to expect an answer to the question.

I think we all knew that.

So far in that post sequence
--you do not answer a single question I have asked,
--you do not address a single point raised,
--you don't respond to any scripture quoted

loDebar said: ↑
What was the answer,? do you by your actions maintain or edify the status of you salvation?

What answer does Christ give in Matthew 18?
Was He in error?

What answer does Paul give in 1Cor 6?
Was He in error?

Does OSAS survive sola scriptura testing? OR is it merely "sola tradition"?

So far in that post sequence
--you do not answer a single question I have asked,
--you do not address a single point raised,
--you don't respond to any scripture quoted

 

[BobRyan]

you answer by not answering, Do you represent SDA or is this a personal position?

you are in error of 1 Cor 6 , and Matt 18 ,

neither has anything to do with eternal security of the believer,

Not a small error, but way off base , not even the same type of duscussion

Your refusal to look at the texts, to answer the questions asked you, to address the points raised... noted

This last post of yours is more like a pontifical judgment than any kind of attention to the detail in the discussion so far.

You have free will and can choose that if you like - I prefer the actual Bible.

 

[One Baptism]

In perusing another thread, one of our brothers made reference to antinomianism. As I was contemplating his thoughts, my mind asked a searching question. In doctrine, I would adamantly reject antinomianism; but, in practice, am I guilty of holding to this false philosophy? In practice, am I prone to allow sin to creep in knowing that God's grace is sufficient to cleanse those sins? I know and have even preached Romans 6:1, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

This was definitely a time of introspection. It may not garner a discussion, but I wanted to share my thoughts.

Sin is to have no place in the life of the Christian [period].

This really needs to be brought back around, and back to the front of the conversation. Many a times we, as Christians, argue [or preach] theologically, and many within that group more theoretically, than practically. Christ Jesus was never about the mere theoretical, or the mere theological, but always, the living, the every day practical, the useful. The mere theory or theology of Godliness or Redemption, will ultimately get us nowhere, if not actually lived out practically, usefully, seen in the daily life, or walk, or as the Bible [KJB] says - the "conversation".

This was one of the reasons, I had created the thread, on the state of the dead [and spiritual necromancy, in "conversation" with the old man of sin, instead of in constant "conversation" with the ever-living Christ Jesus, the New Man], not merely in the physical, but in the spiritual realm [for the old man of sin is supposed to be dead, buried in baptism, and that which arises from the water, is to be the life of Christ Jesus lived out [as Paul says Galatians 2:20 KJB] - Immortal Soul/Spirit Theology, Part Of The False Gospel, Practicers Of Necromancy

Galatians 2:20 KJB - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
​

Therefore, that which can only live into eternity, is Christ Jesus, not I [my old man of sin, and his actions, thoughts, speech, tastes, appetite, deeds, likes, etc], and that new life doesn't begin later, it began the very moment one called upon the name of the LORD Jesus Christ - from victory to victory, from faith to faith, and from glory to glory.

 

[BobRyan]

you answer by not answering, Do you represent SDA or is this a personal position?

you are in error of 1 Cor 6 , and Matt 18 ,

I answer by pointing you to scripture and asking you to address the details of the Word of God --

Your rather pontifical dismissal of them above - is not "Bible study" or "discussion"

In both examples scripture points to what is "done" and brings up either "forgiveness revoked" or "not entering the kingdom" - which now you either claim is the realm of the saved to have their forgiveness "revoked" or you think there are forgiven lost people and that forgiveness has nothing to do with salvation.

It appears you are leaving the discussion rather than dealing with the Bible details.

 

[loDebar]

I answer by pointing you to scripture and asking you to address the details of the Word of God --

Your rather pontifical dismissal of them above - is not "Bible study" or "discussion"

In both examples scripture points to what is "done" and brings up either "forgiveness revoked" or "not entering the kingdom" - which now you either claim is the realm of the saved to have their forgiveness "revoked" or you think there are forgiven lost people and that forgiveness has nothing to do with salvation.

It appears you are leaving the discussion rather than dealing with the Bible details.

I have answered repeatedly, you do not accept the answer not the conclusion from your answers. You are misreading or misapplying Matt 18. and others, I have shown your errors as and offered the correct explanation of sin being forgiven and accepting the pardon is separate.
I asked if this was standard SDA to know whose doctrine was being discussed.
I do not know much about SDA and rejected any group that tries to be Jewish when they are not.

 

[BobRyan]

I have answered repeatedly, you do not accept the answer not the conclusion from your answers. You are misreading or misapplying Matt 18.

It is true that you keep answering that there is some mistake in my quote and my insistence on the details that we see in Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 6.

It is true that I don't accept those sweeping generalities as a compelling disproof of the text I am quoting verbatim.

So on certain points at least - we can agree.

and others, I have shown your errors as and offered the correct explanation of sin being forgiven and accepting the pardon is separate.

You have explained your preferences -- true. But you never take the time to answer how it is that an unpardoned sin still means "forgiveness" or how full forgiveness means "fully unpardoned for sin yet still saved".. all the fallacies that arise out of your assertion you were asked about... and seem to consider the paucity in the logic you offer as something we "simply should not notice".

I asked if this was standard SDA to know whose doctrine was being discussed.

We are talking about logic and reason and addressing the "details" in the text.
If you are asking if SDAs embrace logic and reason and the "details" in the text. then the answer is "yes".

If you are asking if the SDA denomination teaches that saints in heaven are there with all their forgiveness of sins "revoked" -- the answer is most certainly "no" just as it would be with almost every Baptist on the planet (as we probably both know) so nothing in that statement unique to SDAs.

any group that tries to be Jewish when they are not.

So then you consider the New Covenant to be "Jewish" and reject all New Covenant Christians??

 

[loDebar]

You embrace false legalism as the OP was questioning. The New Covenant is not Jewish but you adhere to like the Law. Your faith is on your actions to keep a law.
The New Covenant promises you claim are not for you at this time. You may obtain the blessing when the Promises are made to Israel.
Your misapplication of scripture makes reviewing the same over and over worthless, You have been shown by many errors in doctrine AND the overall statements that logically present Christian doctrine that correct you errors. Yet you just repeat the same verses with same errors.

let us start at he beginning. How do I inherit eternal life?

 

[BobRyan]

You embrace false legalism

false accusations - a dime a dozen.. very easy to sling about.

No 'news' there.

as the OP was questioning. The New Covenant is not Jewish

Indeed it is not. Even though it says explicitly "with the house of Israel" and "with the house of Judah" -- it is still "Not just for literal Jews".

It is repeated verbatim with that same language in Hebrews 8... and "STILL" it is not "going back to Judaism" rather it is for all the saints Jewish Christian or not.

but you adhere to like the Law.

Hint. New Covenant says "I will write MY LAW on their heart and mind" - the LAW that Jeremiah and his readers would know (because exegesis matters when we study the Bible"

Even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" admits to this when it comes to God's TEN Commandments. Blaming the Ten Commandments on "Adventists" is just silly.

Your faith is on your actions to keep a law.

Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them" Paul makes the same case in Romans 2 and 1 Cor 6. They were not in "error"
AND they were not preaching "faith in your actions".

You are making another false accusation that does not survive "a review of the details" in scripture.

The New Covenant promises you claim are not for you at this time

I never made any such claim that the New Covenant "is not for me"

If you claim you are not under the New Covenant - then you are one of the few "Non-New Covenant" Christians one may find on any board - Baptist, Adventist ... etc.

Your misapplication of scripture makes reviewing the same over and over worthless, You have been shown by many errors

If you cannot show those errors in a post like this .. where can you show them?

I have pointed to the flaw in your speculation at each point. I believe the issues I have raised - are irrefutable. Which is why you don't address these points when you set out the framework for your speculation in a post like this.

let us start at he beginning. How do I inherit eternal life?

Inheritance is a promise. Heaven is the reality which is why Peter says to "fix your HOPE completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" - 1 Peter 1:13

Now back to Matthew 18.

 

[loDebar]

what must I do to be saved?

 

[BobRyan]

what must I do to be saved?

Believe on Christ - accept Him as your Savior from sin and rebellion.

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

 

[loDebar]

Is this suffecient?
Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[BobRyan]

Is this suffecient?
Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Tim 3:14-16 says "scripture is sufficient" -- slicing up the Bible down to one text -- not a great idea.

But certainly John 3:16 offers a good summary.. but not even the remotest excuse for ignoring the rest of scripture. Nor does it present itself as a "replacement" for scripture in the first place.

 

[loDebar]

let us try again

If i believe on Him as my Savior do I have eternal life as John 3:16 says?

 

[One Baptism]

let us try again

If i believe on Him as my Savior do I have eternal life as John 3:16 says?

Conditionally, meaning - so long as you "believe" [active ongoing; "πιστευωνG4100 V-PAP-NSM": verb, present, active, participle, nominative, singular, masculine]:

Scripture says:

John 3:15 KJB - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

1 John 5:11 KJB - And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

John 3:18 KJB - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 KJB - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:31 KJB - Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;​

Life [eternal], for us which are created beings, is always conditional, that is based in conditions set forth by God. Adam and Eve had condition in the beginning, as Lucifer did. Adam and Eve, and all who end up in the Kingdom, will have to continually eat from the Tree of Life into eternity [for only God hath inherent immortality - 1 Timothy 6:16 KJB]:

Revelation 2:7 KJB - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
​

Hence the saying, that the Just shall "live" by faith.

 

[BobRyan]

Conditionally, meaning - so long as you "believe" .

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Mattnew 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.[

 

[BobRyan]

let us try again

If i believe on Him as my Savior do I have eternal life as John 3:16 says?

In fact you are bodily resurrected and seated with Christ in heaven at the right hand of the Father. (right up until you experience forgiveness revoked)

Eph 2
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Therefore "fix your hope completely" on the second coming 2 Peter 1:13 when that becomes reality.

12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


1 Cor 9
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others - I myself should be disqualified from it.

Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress e]">[e]for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

 

[One Baptism]

In perusing another thread, one of our brothers made reference to antinomianism. As I was contemplating his thoughts, my mind asked a searching question. In doctrine, I would adamantly reject antinomianism; but, in practice, am I guilty of holding to this false philosophy? In practice, am I prone to allow sin to creep in knowing that God's grace is sufficient to cleanse those sins? I know and have even preached Romans 6:1, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

This was definitely a time of introspection. It may not garner a discussion, but I wanted to share my thoughts.

The entire Everlasting Gospel, yes, the entire plan of Redemption, in practicality, is in this one verse [and so please think and pray over the highlighted word, asking God until you see it, reading it again and again, see also verse 36 - John 1:36 KJB -"And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!"]:

John 1:29 KJB - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.​

Let me know when you see it, and what magnificent and awesome depth is in those two highlighted portions. If you would like more detail, let me know, but I would rather you pray about it, and read it over and over again until you see it by being enlightened by the Holy Ghost yourself.