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Prayer, Catholic and Baptist
- Thread starter Ps104_33
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trying2understand
New Member
Are you bearing false witness again?
What witness am I bearing? You asked for an example and I gave you one.
(edited starting here)
Wait, I just reread the last couple of posts. Now I understand.
No, Psalm, not you personally, but any person who would say "Praise God" in such a manner.
The editorial you, not the "you" you.
I wouold never presume to say such a thing about you, Psalm. To be honest, I find you to be quite likeable.
[ August 28, 2002, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
trying2understand
New Member
Psalm, see my edited post above.
[ August 28, 2002, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
Ed you said,
Sadly, they failed and they were indeed "cut down".
Scripture says:
Psalms 130 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope. My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning. Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
So you see, Ed. Israel is down but not out, brother.
And who among us hasn't failed?
And he shall redeem Israel from ALL his iniquities.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....how does He do that?
Sadly, they failed and they were indeed "cut down".
Scripture says:
Psalms 130 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope. My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning. Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
So you see, Ed. Israel is down but not out, brother.
And who among us hasn't failed?
And he shall redeem Israel from ALL his iniquities.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....how does He do that?
Kathryn S.
New Member
I think some Protestants don’t pray the “Our Father” as Jesus taught because they erroneously believe their sins past, present, AND FUTURE have already been forgiven. They consider their forgiveness from God, a “done deal”.
From Baptist Board site:
Nothing like this one time prayer is taught in Scripture. I don’t see where Jesus taught us to pray to Him this prescribed Sinner Prayer to be “saved”. Didn’t someone here say a prescribed prayer is not from the heart, and that Jesus in the Lord’s Prayer was just teaching us that all prayer was to directed to the Father? The Sinner’s Prayer is directed to Jesus Christ.
I believe praying the “Our Father” daily, and praying that God give us “our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others”, is much more Scriptural than praying the “Sinner’s Prayer” once, and considering my salvation a “done deal”. What is really wrong with praying with the words Jesus taught us to pray? Jesus said, “When you pray say………” The words of Jesus Christ (The Word Himself) have meaning and can be prayed with the heart.
God Bless,
Kathryn
A person only has to be saved once See Hebrews
Would you not consider Romans 10:9-13 an instruction of a sinners prayer?
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Kathryn S.
New Member
quote:
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I believe praying the “Our Father” daily, and praying that God give us “our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others”, is much more Scriptural than praying the “Sinner’s Prayer” once, and considering my salvation a “done deal”. What is really wrong with praying with the words Jesus taught us to pray? Jesus said, “When you pray say………” The words of Jesus Christ (The Word Himself) have meaning and can be prayed with the heart.
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Jesus Christ Himself with the “Our Father" prayer shows us that this is a "daily" thing. Jesus tells us what to ask for when we pray. We are to ask the Father every day for our daily bread and for God’s forgiveness everyday, as we are forgiving others. We are to ask everyday to be delivered from evil and for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus didn’t give us these words for his benefit, but for ours. He was sinless. This is what Jesus said to pray. Why would He tell us to pray for this if it is all a “done deal”?
God Bless
Kathryn
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I believe praying the “Our Father” daily, and praying that God give us “our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others”, is much more Scriptural than praying the “Sinner’s Prayer” once, and considering my salvation a “done deal”. What is really wrong with praying with the words Jesus taught us to pray? Jesus said, “When you pray say………” The words of Jesus Christ (The Word Himself) have meaning and can be prayed with the heart.
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The quotation from Scripture is truth, as is all Scripture. However nowwhere is this truth taught in scripture as being a one time prayer or event, never to be repeated. We must persevere in our faith to the end. Our confession of faith should be continuous, not a one time event. The quote you give from Scripture is part of a daily walk, a continuous conversion, not a one time event.
Jesus Christ Himself with the “Our Father" prayer shows us that this is a "daily" thing. Jesus tells us what to ask for when we pray. We are to ask the Father every day for our daily bread and for God’s forgiveness everyday, as we are forgiving others. We are to ask everyday to be delivered from evil and for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus didn’t give us these words for his benefit, but for ours. He was sinless. This is what Jesus said to pray. Why would He tell us to pray for this if it is all a “done deal”?
God Bless
Kathryn
I dont think that the Lord's prayer ( which is really a misnomer, it should be called the Disciple's Prayer), was ever meant to be something that was to be repeated over and over again. I dont really have a problem with a new disciple who can not yet articulate what he want to say to God in prayer form reciting the Lord's Prayer once. I think God hears it the first time.
The disciple asked Jesus to teach them to pray and Jesus gave them kind of a template with which to form their own prayer to God. It contains all the elements of all spiritual desire in a few choice sentences for the benefit of those who may not be able to bring to birth their hearts desire to God in articulate language. It contains six petitions. Three refer to God's Glory and three to man's good. The prayer shows the disciples to say "Our Father" so they would realize that they were all part of a Divine family. I dont believe that you could find anyone referring to God as the Father in the Old Testament.
Just like everything else the Roman Catholic Church does, they treat the Lord,s prayer like some kind of magic charm.
If Jesus attached so much importance to "forms" of prayer, why did he wait until his disciples asked for a form? I believe that the Lord's prayer was a temporary remedy for a minor evil, the want of utterance, until the greater evil, the want of faith should be cured. Using the Lord's prayer in your everyday prayer life is alright for an immature Christian but as a believer grows in the grace and knowledge of our Savior he/she should be able to talk to God as if He was who He is... Our Heavenly Father.
The disciple asked Jesus to teach them to pray and Jesus gave them kind of a template with which to form their own prayer to God. It contains all the elements of all spiritual desire in a few choice sentences for the benefit of those who may not be able to bring to birth their hearts desire to God in articulate language. It contains six petitions. Three refer to God's Glory and three to man's good. The prayer shows the disciples to say "Our Father" so they would realize that they were all part of a Divine family. I dont believe that you could find anyone referring to God as the Father in the Old Testament.
Just like everything else the Roman Catholic Church does, they treat the Lord,s prayer like some kind of magic charm.
If Jesus attached so much importance to "forms" of prayer, why did he wait until his disciples asked for a form? I believe that the Lord's prayer was a temporary remedy for a minor evil, the want of utterance, until the greater evil, the want of faith should be cured. Using the Lord's prayer in your everyday prayer life is alright for an immature Christian but as a believer grows in the grace and knowledge of our Savior he/she should be able to talk to God as if He was who He is... Our Heavenly Father.
trying2understand
New Member
Kathryn, what wonderful insight!
"Give us this day our daily bread..."
This does seem to suggest that we should pray thus each day.
"Forgive us..."
Asking for forgiveness in the same prayer. So we should ask God for forgiveness each day? I would say yes. I know that I do.
Does it all say something about having all your sins past, present and "future" forgiven in one instant? Jesus seems to be instructing us that we need to continue in daily seeking forgiveness.
Great insight!!
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
See how ridiculuos that is?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
Would you expect your own child to ask you for something in the same exact way evey day? Why wouldnt you think that God would want us to talk to him the way we would talk to our earthly Father?
See how ridiculuos that is?
Kathryn S.
New Member
You don’t address why Jesus says to pray "give us this day our daily bread", and "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others who trespass against us". Why did he say this, if it is a “done deal”?
You explain away the "Our Father" prayer as only for “immature” Christians. Jesus teaches us to come to him as little children. Jesus gave His church a prayer whether we are mature or immature. It is the same prayer the Apostles prayed. Who are we to decide we are too mature to use the words Jesus gave us? We will never be too “mature” to use these words of Jesus Christ.
In Scripture Jesus didn’t say pray: “My Father”, “Give me this day my daily bread”, and “forgive me my sins as I forgive those who trespass against me.” In the "Our Father" Jesus uses the words “OUR Father”, “ give Us this day” “forgive us OUR sins”, as “WE forgive those who trespass against US”. Jesus is telling us to pray together as His church, the body of Christ. When Christians pray the “Our Father” whether alone or together we are praying as part of the Body of Christ. Among everything else here, Jesus was teaching unity. This is far from an “immature” prayer. The words of Jesus Christ here all have meaning.
God Bless
Kathryn
[ August 30, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn S. ]
You explain away the "Our Father" prayer as only for “immature” Christians. Jesus teaches us to come to him as little children. Jesus gave His church a prayer whether we are mature or immature. It is the same prayer the Apostles prayed. Who are we to decide we are too mature to use the words Jesus gave us? We will never be too “mature” to use these words of Jesus Christ.
In Scripture Jesus didn’t say pray: “My Father”, “Give me this day my daily bread”, and “forgive me my sins as I forgive those who trespass against me.” In the "Our Father" Jesus uses the words “OUR Father”, “ give Us this day” “forgive us OUR sins”, as “WE forgive those who trespass against US”. Jesus is telling us to pray together as His church, the body of Christ. When Christians pray the “Our Father” whether alone or together we are praying as part of the Body of Christ. Among everything else here, Jesus was teaching unity. This is far from an “immature” prayer. The words of Jesus Christ here all have meaning.
God Bless
Kathryn
[ August 30, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn S. ]
trying2understand
New Member
Kathryn, awesome!!
[ August 30, 2002, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
GraceSaves
New Member
Psalm,
You are attacking prayers without looking into the obvious reasoning behind them. The Hail Mary's in the rosary are said while medidating on scripture. You announce a scripture passage, say the Our Father, and pray 10 Hail Mary's while medidating on the Scripture. You obviously reject prayer to Mary, but being one who does not, I'm asking for Mary's intercession for me while I medidate on the Word of God. Now I'm learning more about God while having someone pray for me. It's not a bad deal.
I don't appreciate the words "cold" and "vain" attached to a prayer that none of the non-Catholics have ever recited nor have a complete understanding of. I would never say that about one of your practices that I disagree with.
ALSO, about being saved "ONCE AND FOR ALL," I must bring up again that I know many people who have been "saved" on more than one occasion.
You are attacking prayers without looking into the obvious reasoning behind them. The Hail Mary's in the rosary are said while medidating on scripture. You announce a scripture passage, say the Our Father, and pray 10 Hail Mary's while medidating on the Scripture. You obviously reject prayer to Mary, but being one who does not, I'm asking for Mary's intercession for me while I medidate on the Word of God. Now I'm learning more about God while having someone pray for me. It's not a bad deal.
I don't appreciate the words "cold" and "vain" attached to a prayer that none of the non-Catholics have ever recited nor have a complete understanding of. I would never say that about one of your practices that I disagree with.
ALSO, about being saved "ONCE AND FOR ALL," I must bring up again that I know many people who have been "saved" on more than one occasion.